B-26 Crash Parts I/D

Unlikely?

Ok Guys,so which museum would you suggest? or if it goes to a collector how will anyone be able to see it? it might as well be scrapped.

As to the armour rusting away,it probably will but not for a couple of hundred years,it still has most of the original paint intact at present. It is highly unlikely that any “passing souvenir hunters” will carry 250 lbs of turret armour away,and if they do they are commiting a crime,just the same as if someone breakes into your house or steals your car. The protection of military remains act is an act of UK law,regardless of who owns or has rights to the wreckage. I know there are those who would like to see a free for all on crash sites so they can cart off as much wreckage as they like(to sell it on ebay in some cases) and dig any site,even those known to be war graves,but like it or not the act exists,and it does so for a reason.

Alan,with all due respect I have been visiting crash sites and recording them for over thirty years and the only time I have seen large parts moved or removed from a site is when a “wreckologist” moves them. Surely you would agree it is far easier to locate a site where wreckage remains? or would you prefer to see all high ground sites cleared completely? across the UK there has been a huge amount of wreckage removed by recovery groups since the late 60’s but where has it all gone? museums? collections? scrap? if it has gone to museums then where are they? if it has gone into private collections then how is anyone supposed to find out who has what?

G-ASEA,Snowdonia national park have never had a policy of removing wreckage from sites,dispite what the rumor mill would have us believe.

I’m more than happy to discuss this subject with anyone who wants to,all I ask is they are not the sort who dig up sites without permission knowing they will find human remains,or who sell wreckage on sites such as ebay,basically those who partake in what the BAAC refer to as the “grubby” side of aviation archaeology;) .

G.O.

Unless I have misunderstood you said previously that somebody took away the armour illegally and it is now going be carted back up the mountain to be dumped at the crash site? However, you are now saying that it is unlikely that anyone would ever remove it from the mountain. Or am I losing the plot here?

As regards moving wreckage, I’m sure you have been visiting sites for a long time, I have been to over 330 so have seen all types of change as well, here is the best local example C-47 42-108982 Ashton Clough, Bleaklow, Both engines have moved a considerable distance down hill and one was completely buried by entirely natural processess (refered to earlier). Additionally other parts have moved down slope from where the aircraft crashed and have finally been moved out of Ashton Clough by water. The under carriage has also slowly moved down hill, on each visit it has moved a few feet. The best example I have seen in the British Isles was on the Isle of Man, any protectionist survey would have done the square root of b****r all. A land slide removed the site completely all trace has now gone, usually an excavation leaves behind lots of bits but this removed everything down to the bare rock.

Some of the worst people are just you average bobble hatted rambler, they can completely change the distribution of wreckage. Bits get picked up, wander off to another walker, ask stupid question, get answer, drop it on the ground.

Yes it easier to locate a site when wreckage remains and I am not saying we should clear them, I prefer to see high ground left as they are as well.

Snowdonia did not actively remove wrecks themselves (so you were sort of right), however they gave a grant to a local group, the Snowdonia Aircraft wreck society, to enable wrecks to be cleared (so there you would be wrong). I got that from a former member of that group who was with them at the time. Also is was not only Snowdonia NPA who wanted rid of wrecks, the Lake District NPA actively sought to have wrecks removed in the 60s and 70s. I have a copy of a letter requesting that certain wrecks be removed before walkers spread the remains all over the place (both were light aircraft so can’t be spread about that easily).

I ask the same question about recovered items, where has it all gone? Most recovered material did end up in museums but unfortunately the financial pressures most small museums end up with, see the problems that the Dumfries & Galloway museum are having at the moment, means they eventually fail and the collection is then broken up. Some will get passed on to other museums but a lot has been scrapped which is a real shame. I do not agree with the idea of returning items that have been away for over 20 years. In fact it would be impossible to procecute any one who then subsequently removed it, particularly in the case of items recovered for display post 1986 where all claim by the crown has been removed. Effectively an organisation doing that could end up being charged with littering and to get permission to return items would probably have to go through planning laws and environmental protection legislation and would be denied by both regimes.

Perhaps if the licencing system was more transparent then we would not have the problem of unlicenced excavations. The biggest problem is still the fact that the MoD have much more information that we do and often they will turn an application down without any real reasoning given and when they do it can be vague.

A good discussion always helps things, I dislike the selling of items on the likes of ebay as well, I always see bits from the local area, including a large part from an unlicenced dig that uncovered human remains in about 1990.

Ok Guys,so which museum would you suggest? or if it goes to a collector how will anyone be able to see it? it might as well be scrapped.

As to the armour rusting away,it probably will but not for a couple of hundred years,it still has most of the original paint intact at present. It is highly unlikely that any “passing souvenir hunters” will carry 250 lbs of turret armour away,and if they do they are commiting a crime,just the same as if someone breakes into your house or steals your car. The protection of military remains act is an act of UK law,regardless of who owns or has rights to the wreckage. I know there are those who would like to see a free for all on crash sites so they can cart off as much wreckage as they like(to sell it on ebay in some cases) and dig any site,even those known to be war graves,but like it or not the act exists,and it does so for a reason.

Alan,with all due respect I have been visiting crash sites and recording them for over thirty years and the only time I have seen large parts moved or removed from a site is when a “wreckologist” moves them. Surely you would agree it is far easier to locate a site where wreckage remains? or would you prefer to see all high ground sites cleared completely? across the UK there has been a huge amount of wreckage removed by recovery groups since the late 60’s but where has it all gone? museums? collections? scrap? if it has gone to museums then where are they? if it has gone into private collections then how is anyone supposed to find out who has what?

G-ASEA,Snowdonia national park have never had a policy of removing wreckage from sites,dispite what the rumor mill would have us believe.

I’m more than happy to discuss this subject with anyone who wants to,all I ask is they are not the sort who dig up sites without permission knowing they will find human remains,or who sell wreckage on sites such as ebay,basically those who partake in what the BAAC refer to as the “grubby” side of aviation archaeology;) .

G.O.

Exactly so…!!

Exactly! If not in a museum then at least held by an enthisiast or collector and not just left to the elements, nature, and passing curious souvenir hunters. Clearly the “return them to where they crashed” brigade would have the RAF Museum dump the Stirling back where it was (Mickle Fell from memory?) and holes dug the length and breadth of Britain to re-bury excavated wrecks. Oh….and better not forget to dump the Wellington back in Loch Ness whilst we are about it.

I thought it was the snowdon park authority’s that had cleared all aircraft wreckage up of the mountains. So whats the point of putting it back to rust away. It would be better of in a museum.

Has no body told the national mafia that sites change over time, parts move about and sometimes get covered up with vegetation, rocks and mud so the record of what was at the site (other than for large parts, though I have seen an engine disappear completely due to a flash flood moving it and then dumping a couple of tons of rocks on it) is only good for that day.

PMRA Act

Hi Guys,

Just in case anyone is thinking of removing the parts from this site,it is on National Trust property and the trust will prosecute anyone found disturbing crash sites on it’s land,the site has been recorded in detail so there is a full record on the remaining wreckage. The tail turret armour G-ASEA mentions was removed from the site without permission,fortunatly this has reciently been found and will be returned to the site in the near future.

G.O.

Thank heavens for the wreck site Police! The tail turret armour will be lugged back up the mountain and left there to rust away or for someone else to bring back down again? Am not sure that the NT would be able to prosecute anyone for taking away wreckage found on its land but I stand to be corrected. On what grounds? Might be a different matter if someone went a-digging on NT land without authority but the material, per se, is under the control of the MOD via the PMR Act and a licence would be needed from them first, anyway. Just dont get this compulsion to return high ground wreckage back to high ground really. It also flies in the face of the English Heritage consultative document which does not advocate the leaving of wreckages on hill and mountain sides. Andy Saunders

Hi Guys,

Just in case anyone is thinking of removing the parts from this site,it is on National Trust property and the trust will prosecute anyone found disturbing crash sites on it’s land,the site has been recorded in detail so there is a full record on the remaining wreckage. The tail turret armour G-ASEA mentions was removed from the site without permission,fortunatly this has reciently been found and will be returned to the site in the near future.

G.O.

Good point Moggy, thanks. Might just try that.

It might be worth contacting the Museum at Le Bourget who have an intact B26

Moggt

No apologies for thread creep required! Did we ever know the identities of the B-17 and B-26?

I remember crawling into the B-26

Me too, and the B17.

From the very rear of the B26 section, i.e. the gunner’s compartment, you could make out more fuselage sections buried much further into the scrap mountain.

Access to them might have been possible with a lot of “tunneling”, but the thought of what might happen if a piece of scrap slipped, put me off the idea.

Incidentally, and as I still have both the B17’s control columns, and the throttle pedestral from the B26, can anyone remind me what their identities were?

Apologies for thread creep.

Thanks for the comments everyone. For Colin, I’ll resize the photo as soon as I get a chance as am off to work soon. Re the B-26 rear fuselage at Earls Colne, was this not the one that was discovered in a scrapyard in Warrington, Lancs in the 1970s? Along with lots of other goodies, it came from nearby Burtonwood. It was sticking out of a mountain of industrial scrap, along with a B-17 nose adorned with many bomb symbols. I remember crawling into the B-26, assuming it was part of the B-17 and then realising that it was much too small. The B-17 nose went to Duxford and I believe it was scrapped. It is to be hoped that the B-26 section is preserved as, in my opinion, these relics are major pieces of original aviation history.

Slightly off track, but what happened to the B-26 rear end that was found in the woods at Earls Colne and was displayed at the now defunct Rebel Air Museum.

I think it is still on the airfield, one of the only parts that was kept.

Slightly off track, but what happened to the B-26 rear end that was found in the woods at Earls Colne and was displayed at the now defunct Rebel Air Museum.

Glad to be able to offer a clue which will hopefully lead you in the right direction. I would be very pleased if it turns out that is what it is but with my past record of identifying bits of aeroplane I’m just as likely to be wrong.

Hi Mike
ahhhhhh haaaaaaa, now it all makes sense, we wondered about protection of the feed chute but its size did not seem to cover the area. we were quite sure it was part of the cheek gun area.

I think now we will get someone confirm.

Colin may I offer a clue as to why you would protect a gun with armour? If the breech area of a gun suffers a bullet it strike there is a chance it will jam the mechanism rendering the weapon useless except as ballast.
Hope that makes sense to you
Mike

Hi AT
The part in picture “1” we also found on our B.26 excavation 31 years ago and have never had full firm I/D but we think it is part of one of the .50cal cheek guns but not a confirm as why would you put armour plate to protect a gun?. It has two fixing to wich make it look like a solid fix rather than a moving part.

PS anychance of a larger pic of the second one I will have a goo at that for you.
Regards
Colin

Don’t no what the bits are unfortunately. When i when up there in the early 1970’s . Their was the engines and a big piece of armour plate, which looked like it came from the rear turret behind the gunner. Also saw the armoured door/window from above the pilot. My son spoke to a local that brought a machine gun down from the site in the 60’s. But that had long gone, i think the parents found out.