B17 command crew.

398th Bomb Group – Nuthampstead

Hello Pimpernel – I am so glad you enjoyed your visit to The Woodman Inn, thanks for leaving a donation for the booklet, I spent many hours putting that all together back in 2006. I am ‘Ozzie’ and have been the UK historian for the 398th Bomb Group since 1971. I know you have PM’d my good friend ‘Shabbyabbey’ and he will certainly give you a good tour around the old airbase.

Your simple question is a great one to pose – I could fill a whole chapter in answering it, it is such a complex and wonderful aspect of 8th AAF Operations. Let’s try:-

As I understand it – and this is totally specific to the 398th, (but all the other Groups would have operated in a similar way). When a B-17G pilot was assessed above average after his first few missions, he would be considered as a potential ‘Deputy Lead’ then ‘Lead’ crew. Lead Crews would fly the Pathfinder equipped ships (PFF) using the H2X radar system installed in them. H2X was an improved version of the RAF’s H2S and came from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) Radar Laboratories (RadLabs).

The 398th, like the thirty nine other Bomb Groups, had four squadrons of Bombers, B-17Gs in their case. There were an average of sixteen bombers per squadron and it was usual (there were exceptions of course) to fly three squadrons on a typical mission, usually with twelve ships per squadron.

Each squadron would use two PFF ships – flying as lead and deputy lead. To add to the confusion, the 398th had it’s own PFF ships, but would often use PFF ships from other First Air Division bomb groups, the 91st at Bassingbourn being a regular supplier. They might use a 91st ship with a 398th crew, but the PFF (Mickey) operator would be 91st BG. But many times it would be a 398th ship with a wholly 398th crew including the Mickey Man. We think this was because of the continual improvements and modifications to the PFF sets, thus ensuring that the very latest sets were used for leading Combat Wing (CBW) or Air Division (AD) formations. Let me now go back to an individual crew again.

Each squadron had it’s lead Pilots, Navigators and Bombardiers.

In a lead aircraft the normal Co-pilot, Bombardier and Navigator would be stood down for a particular mission and replaced by the squadron P, N and B.
Sometimes the navigator would stay and the ship would fly with two Ns. This was variable – nothing was constant and each Squadron had it’s own methods, but all within Operational procedures of course.

So we have three squadrons taking off for a mission -the lead ships would take-off ten minutes ahead of the rest of the group. The three squadrons would form up as ‘Lead’ – ‘High’ and ‘Low’. The ‘lead’ squadron would lead the whole 398th Group and would be known – unsurprisingly – as ‘Group Lead’, flown under the control of the ‘Command Acting’ pilot.

The 398th would form up and then find the 91st BG, then they would find the 381st BG (not always in that order of course) and form the 1st CBW of the 1st AD. There would be a ‘Lead Group’ a ‘High Group’ and a ‘Low Group’. The lead group would almost certainly contain a crew made up of the Group Commander and his most experienced and skilful officer crew members, hence also, the need for the very latest version of the H2X set.

Now the 1st CBW would form in front/behind the other CBWs – depending on where the Mission Field Order had placed them – until the 1st AD was in a ‘bomber stream’ often with the 3rd AD – sometimes with the 2nd AD and their B-24s. This stream could be 120 – 140 miles long, and take over an hour to pass overhead if you stood at the point of departure on the East Anglia coast, imagine that!

Back to our individual crew at Nuthampstead. The replacement pilot for the co-pilot was known as ‘Command Acting’ if he was about to use this ship as the 398th Group Lead. He would also have the Group Nav -and Group Bombardier along with him, plus a top class Mickey Operator. The second (group) navigator would initially go to the tail gunners position and report back on the intercom how the Squadron was forming up, then how the Group was forming up. At Nuthampstead after February 45, the Group Commander, Lt. Col.Lewis P Ensign, if not on the mission, would fly up in a ‘borrowed’ (that’s another story) A-20 and observe his Group’s forming up. He would berate them at the next briefing if they failed to meet his standards.

The lead ships, once at initial forming up altitude, would lower their landing gear, then fire flares or blink aldis lamps in the squadron’s code for the day, enabling the other ships to find and form up on them. All this in radio silence – although this was not the case in 1945 – but certainly without any form of air-traffic control. Imagine over 1,000 bombers forming up over East Anglia in relative radio silence (command radios were used between ships sometimes) – the CAA would have kittens today!!

I hope this lengthy reply has been helpful. Please come back to me if you have any more questions. That simple ‘Command Pilot’ question is anything but simple to adequately respond to.

Thanks for your interest and as the 398th BGMA President used to say “Keep em’ flying”.

I think you mean the bombarier & radar nav would be in the nose, not behind the pilots. Not much room back there in a B-17…(as opposed to say a C-54).

Why would they replace a qualified gunner with the commissioned officer nav?
I’m sure they had some gun training to operate te cheek guns, but IIRC, there was no crew position as a “:nose turret gunner”.

I was referencing a B24 crew on the Pathfinder bit. Radar Nav was behind the pilot. Radar Bombardier was behind the co-pilot. Engineer between the pilot and co-pilot. Nose gunner moved to the top turret. Regular Nav in the nose turret, apparently to help with visual navigation. Bombardier still in the nose.

I Don’t know the set up for a Pathfinder B-17 but there is no doubt on this Pathfinder B24 crew. I got to know the surviving crew and they were very specific about it. They went down February 14, 1945 and I can tell you what everyone did from the moment the flak shell hit.

They ended up with 6people on the flight deck with the Radar Nav and bombardier shoe horned in behind the pilots along with the engineer helping the pilots. The normal nose gunner went to the top turret. The normal bombardier went to the nose turret. The ball turrey gunner went to a waist gun leaving the radio operator for just that job etc.

I think you mean the bombarier & radar nav would be in the nose, not behind the pilots. Not much room back there in a B-17…(as opposed to say a C-54).

Why would they replace a qualified gunner with the commissioned officer nav?
I’m sure they had some gun training to operate te cheek guns, but IIRC, there was no crew position as a “:nose turret gunner”.

Seems like I remember reading in a few spots that a command crew often had the normal co-pilot fly in the tail gunner’s spot to watch the formation, while a group commander, squadron commander or some other ranking officer would take the co-pilot seat or bump the pilot to the co-pilot seat.

Think General Savage in “12 O’ Clock High”. He bumps Jesse Bishop out of his pilot seat on his first mission leading the fictional 918th.

Pathfinder crews were different in that the PFF birds had radar in place of the ball turrets. This meant adding a radar navigator and bombardier to the crew. I researched a B24 Pathfinder crew for a long time. They ended up with 6people on the flight deck with the Radar Nav and bombardier shoe horned in behind the pilots along with the engineer helping the pilots. The normal nose gunner went to the top turret. The normal bombardier went to the nose turret. The ball turrey gunner went to a waist gun leaving the radio operator for just that job etc.

They had 12 men in the crew at that point instead of the normal 10.

Thanks for the replies guys.

Shabby.

Thanks for the offer which I might take up one day soon.

P.M. sent.

Brian.

Brian,

Checking with the 398th people to see if Lt. Bowen is still with us to ask directly.

Hope you enjyed your return visit to Nuthampstead… if you venture up the A10 again for another visit PM me, and I’ll arrange an airfield tour.

Shabby

www.station131.co.uk
www.55th.org

Just checked through ‘ D-DAY BOMBERS: the veterans story, by STEPHEN DARLOW and the only clue I have found concerns PFF aircrew who flew the lead in a Wing(54 aircraft) in a B-17 modified with GEE and H2X radar. The co pilots seat was taken by a non crew member i.e A Major or other high rank as an observer.