B17 Liberty Belle

b17 Liberty Belle

Gee Dee
My question was really tongue in cheek….When under fighter attack, the worst position in the plane is the copilot’s spot. The pilot is flying the plane. the rest of the crew all have guns to fire except the copilot. I can vouch for that from personal experience.

Talking of flights guys, would’nt it be great if the Sally B could do the same? Would certainly help out her financial situation.. Though the CAA won’t allow it I think.

B17 Flights

Thanks Geedee – great shots from Fuddy Duddy – she looks in nice shape .

I agree about the plane being alive with engine and control wires vibrating – I had a ride in Yankee Lady at Reading PA in 2002 and getting in the plane with motors running kinda scared me because it brought it home to me that those guys really did put their necks on the line and do those missions – it was an awesome experience – hope to do it again one day , maybe in 909

Best Ron

Heres a few more…

Andy
If I remember, there was only 1 gun in the nose, most of my sorties were flown in B17F
I guess the reason that a nose turret was put in, was because of head on attacks.
Another reason the Germans made head on attacks was that they tried to get a plane out of their tight formation. A single plane was dead meat.

Hi Jules

Hmmmm…lets see. I’m working memory from a fantastic 25 minute flight last year in a Fort that isnt fully equiped with all the wartime stuff and what I would imagine the inside must have felt like when under attack

Ok, assuming you arent on the bomb run but are none the less under attack from fighters.

Starting from the back. Tail End Charlie (or whatever he was called by you guys.) Perched on a small seat with little or no padding, hunched down behind a gun sight. He’s got a brilliant field of view but limited gun travel so he can see stuff coming from angles that he cant reach. He’s at the very back of the plane, so any movement of elevator or flight through turbulence, he’s gonna get bounced around abit. He cant wear a ‘chute cos there isnt enough room and he knows the whole of the crew are counting on him to protect the back of the plane. Plus, he’s going backwards into any trouble and probably feels very lonely and exposed in the back.

Waist gunners, pretty good field of view but again limited gun travel….dont want to shoot bits off your own transport !…Trying to stand up while the plane is tossed around by flack / turbulence etc, while trying to get a bead on an incoming bogey. Having to rely on the .50 cal for support while being bounced around. Tremendous noise in the mid section, no armour and exposed flight cables and bucket loads of empties to kick out of the way. And you can guarantee that just as you get lined up on a sitting duck, your buddy on the other waist gun will bang into you or you’ll get your oxy mask feed line tangled. Feeling very exposed with nothing but a thin sheet of ali between you and the cold and nasties outside, but no doubt sweating like ‘ell.

Upper Turret. Good field of view with a decent range of gun travel. probably the most annoying bit would be the inability to shoot at anything below the horizon. Two noisy guns next to your face and you also have to drive the turret around and up and down….not as fast or easy as a free mounted unit like the waist gun.

Ball Turret. The words sardine and tin can fall to mind. not for the claustrophobic or feint of heart this one. Squeezed into a small metal ball with 2 noisy attention getters. Limited visibilty form inside the turret but probably the largest field of view and fire out of the whole shooting match. Feeling very exposed stuck out in the airstream, suspended below all your mates, knowing that the belly is a relatively soft target for attacking fighters. Cant wear a parachute, suffer from leg cramp and again having to drive your guns mechanically.

Pilot, co-pilot. Sit there and try and make yourself extremely small cos all you can do is trundle on and hope the guys with bang sticks had a good night sleep the night before. Probably put a tin hat on, or even sit on one ?

Radio operator. stuck in the middle with two small windows to look out and one of the emergency escape hatch’s with a gun poking out. probably the best protected by reason of location, getting relative protection from the wings/ engines but actually the main aiming point for any fighter (hit the middle and your gonna hurt something.)

Bomb aimer / navigator. stunning field of view of whats they have to fly through and depending on the model, iether a couple of .50’s, each side or a mechanical turret underneath. Early Forts where almost always attacked from the front and a huge piece of plexiglass doesnt give the guys behind it much protection.

I imagine the top and ball turret where the busiest places cos depending on inter crew communication, they would have to turn to face the fighters and provide back up to the waist guys and the front. And you can only point or traverse at a certain speed. You loose a powered turret and either the whole top or the belly of your plane is wide open for any one who’s realised and fancies a squirt.

I still think the drivers had the worst job, cos they had nothing to fight back with. I guess ultimately, if the crew didnt work as a team with top notch inter-station communication, they had less chance of returning home.

I’d be interested from your experience and knowledge what did the crew think as the worst place…They’d all probably say theirs was the worst and the drivers didnt help much either !!!

Hi Jules, Hi All
Here’s another picture Jules sent me.
In my opinion, when a fort was under head-on attack the Bombadier and Navigator must have had a pretty interesting view. Especially in the early models with no real forward defence.
What do you think Jules?
Cheers
Andy

This is an interesting question Jules, I cant decide between the waist and ball turret gunners, the formers because they stand and expose most of the body without protection, the latter because it’s just stuck in that damn small ball hanging under the plane. I read of a poor ball turret gunner who was stuck in the ball and the plane had both landing gears stuck. The poor gunner was killed when the pilot was forced to land the aeroplane: they tried everything and kept on flying until the fuel was finished, but couldnt find a way to save that poor soul. 🙁

Alex

geedee,
You made my day, my chest is so puffed up that I popped the buttons on my shirt.
I guess that I wasn’t too clear with my question.
What I meant, was when the bombers were under attack by enemy fighters, what is the worst position in the plane.

geedee,
I’m looking forward to next month when the Collings B17 “Nine O Nine” comes into my area, I sit in a chair at the exit door and as people exit the plane I try to answer questions that they might have
Let me pose a question. In your opinion what is the worst position in a B17 in combat?
Don’t answer all the positions (the whole plane) because that is a given.

Hi Jules

Not something I have any experience of but having thought about it for a bit I would imagine that the Pilot has probably the worst job. Thinking about it, he’s got the responsibility of the rest of his crew, He’s got to keep place in a tight formation for hours on end, with out the use of powered controls, irrespective of what flak / fighters are being thrown at him, or whatever weather . turbulence is in front. He has to fly straight and level on the bomb run and cant take any avoiding action. And more importantly, he can only sit there without a gun or any other means of fighting back / protecting himself and watch all hell open up in front of him. He’s got to have eyes in the back of head to watch out for other damaged ‘planes dropping out of formation and coming close to him, he’s got to watch out for bombs dropping from higher boxes, He’s got to fight the controls from all the turbulence and he’s got to rely on every guy in the crew doing their job, from the bomb toggler, through to Tail End Charlie. And when the’ve finished the bomb run and are fighting their way back, he’s the poor guy that has to fly a potentially crippled ‘plane hundreds of miles, with everyone in the ‘plane relying on him to get them back and down in one piece. He’s also the poor slob, who’s got to try and keep his plane straight and level long enough for his crew to bail out if required and then he’s got to try and get out himself !.

Having said that, there’s probably no finer office to sit in for the first few hours before it all starts going pear shaped.

Whether you’re flying a Fort / Lanc / Lib whatever, any plane where there are crew puts the Pilot in the hot seat in my books. Considering the ages of the aircrew on all side during the last one, there were a hell of a lot of brave and scared people to which we all owe a huge debt

If you want to see some WW2 pictures check Dec 30 and Jan7 threads. I sent them to Andy via his e-mail, the only way that I can get them on this website.

the ball turret… i can’t believe anybody had to sit with their ass in the wind, knees around their ears and being shot at…

vets have my undying respect

geedee,
I’m looking forward to next month when the Collings B17 “Nine O Nine” comes into my area, I sit in a chair at the exit door and as people exit the plane I try to answer questions that they might have
Let me pose a question. In your opinion what is the worst position in a B17 in combat?
Don’t answer all the positions (the whole plane) because that is a given.

Hi Jules

I was looking forward to a flight in the ‘Overcast’ but it was slightly bent prior to Oshkosh, so instead, I had a trip in ‘Fuddy Duddy’.

It was only around a 25 miunte hop, but it was a hell of an experience. The noise from the engines and the whole airframe shaking with take off power, swear blind it was alive.

There’s no way a quick trip can compare with what the crews went though during wartime, the lack of armour and feeling of vulnerability must have been overpowering times. I was watching with interest, the control cables moving along the inside of the fuselage and when it was time to go forward up to the office, that walk across the bomb bay was something else.

To me, the most awe inspiring time of the whole flight, was sat up front on the bomb aimers seat, looking through the front glazing distorted slightly and covered in squashed bugs, a real magic carpet ride, then looking round and back towards the wings with those huge radials burbling along. And to cap it all, this was not in a new build plane but one from more than a few years back. Deep respect, and that goes to all the other crews whatever nationaliity.

I’ve attached a few piccies I took from various stations on Fuddy Duddy for you.

Gary,
I was offered and accepted a ride in the EAA “Aluminum Overcast” B17 when they were in my area (Ft Lauderdale, FL) last year, and selling rides. They were enroute to Kitty Hawk, NC for the Wright Bros celebration