B17G European tour…….

Have a look at the debacle over the (NZ bound) Spitfire they recently impounded & held up export as it was a “war machine”.

Not the same thing….we’re talking about a U.S. registered aircraft re-entering its county. No close to an export/import situation.

What are you talking about?
Why would the the Dept of HS care since they don’t seem to mind warbirds operating in the US?.

Have a look at the debacle over the (NZ bound) Spitfire they recently impounded & held up export as it was a “war machine”.

Something bewildering to us Americans, is that she cannot be capitalized in order to cover insurance costs. In France, article 1 concerning historical aircraft states that the aircraft can only have on board people that perform a specific on-flight function. Consequently, it is impossible to pay for her flight costs by giving tours during air shows, something commonly done in the US for b-17s. As she receives no help from the French government, all her insurance costs must be paid for by sponsors.

That rule pretty much came about because of a certain A26 display at Biggin quite some years ago…

Some other things to keep in mind is the US Homeland Security might not like this little trip and put a nix on it…

What are you talking about?
Why would the the Dept of HS care since they don’t seem to mind warbirds operating in the US?

I’m sure the EU insurance rules and fuel prices will have more to do with any decision than security rules.

I beg to differ – the best displays at Coventry were in the ’60s when it hosted the National Air races 🙂

cue someone older than me to now post a thread saying the best were in the ’50s….:D

Roger Smith.

We won’t mention the ones by the Luftwaffe in the ’40’s….;)

It looks like…NO…not on your side of the Channel. Insurance costs strike again!!!:mad:

STATUS OF THE PINK LADY
By Admin on Thursday, March 27 2008, 11:09 – Permalink
There are many rumors running around the internet concerning the status of the pink lady, many of them untrue, and so I would like to dedicate this entry to clarifying certain points.

The excellent news is that the Pink Lady has found a sponsor to cover flight insurance costs for 2008, and so she will continue to fly this year. Next year is uncertain however. The problem is that (as I covered in an earlier post) the insurance costs in France for this aircraft have been multiplied by 8 in recent years, thus bringing her into the same category as the other, more modern Boeing, the 767 passenger jet…Indeed, it costs 7,000 euros per meeting.

Mr. Dominé has confirmed that there is no truth to the rumor being spread in German forums that the aircraft needs to be grounded because of a lack of pilots who are qualified to fly. Indeed, there are three pilots at present that can expertly fly the aircraft, and training is not a problem. Afterall, there are many B-17 still flying in the United States. Indeed, the most difficult part in France is finding mechanics that are qualified to perform maintenance on the piston engines.

Concerning the state of the aircraft, she is in absolute prime flying condition. Indeed, she even underwent a major overhaul a few years ago, and has never missed a meeting due to any mechanical problems.

Something bewildering to us Americans, is that she cannot be capitalized in order to cover insurance costs. In France, article 1 concerning historical aircraft states that the aircraft can only have on board people that perform a specific on-flight function. Consequently, it is impossible to pay for her flight costs by giving tours during air shows, something commonly done in the US for b-17s. As she receives no help from the French government, all her insurance costs must be paid for by sponsors.

Therefore, given that mechanically she is in pristine condition and that there is no shortage of qualified pilots, it is clear that it is only the French government (whether by inappropriate insurance costs, absence of funding, and idiotic laws) that is doing everything possible to assure she is grounded, for she will fly as long as the ATV can cover insurance costs.

Concerning airshow presence in 2008, it seems that there are 3 planned:
La Ferté: May 31st
Melun: July 20th
One in September (?)

http://www.thepinklady.fr/post/2008/03/27/Status-of-the-Pink-Lady

B17 Pink lady .

Hello
Does anybody known if the french B17 Pink lady this flying this year.
Maybe at a little airshow in Cambridge in July or any where else in England.

Yours
11Group

We would certainly welcome any aircraft over here for displays; we don’t have any issues over security, it’s just that pesky regulation. But there are certainly restrictions from the USA regarding more modern aircraft – you wouldn’t stand much chance of getting an export license (sic) for a jet warbird out of the USA.

Even parts can be hard to buy if the vendor cannot get permission for export. A certain UK based historic jet had just such a problem last year.

$2.50? I’ll have 2 at that price, though I don’t know where I’d put them:D Sorry for being facetious but I couldn’t resist. I guess you mean 2.5 million?

Rob,

Its not really Homeland that has a problem with Historical US Owned Aircraft go over to the UK its more with your side of stuff by what I’ve been told. But since I’m not part of Liberty Group I’m not sure what the major hang up is except for what I’ve already posted.

As for Pink Lady the price I’ve heard is that they folks who own it have been offered 2.5 USD now how true this is I’m not sure but it does come from a reliable source in the US based Warbird Community

Yeah, suppose you forget about those things don’t you………..

It is a crying shame that our American friends think that a classic warbird could be deemed a threat to their country by letting it take part in airshows across the pond for the benifit of an aviation enthusiast……….dangerous stuff that:(

If this is the case with the regulations, how come US based B24 Liberator ‘Diamond Lil’ managed to make it over a few years ago?

Rob,

That was before the new rules and regs also if you recall the CAF couldn’t charge for rides and they end up loosing their collective shirt over the trip.

Also don’t forget that trip took place way before 9/11 so allot has change since then on both side of the Pond.:(

If this is the case with the regulations, how come US based B24 Liberator ‘Diamond Lil’ managed to make it over a few years ago?

The CAA don’t like it any more than we do….it is purely an EU regulation, and was steamrollered in with little or no consultation. We are all bound by that regulation, which has little to do with historic aircraft and nothing at all to do with common sense. We already have enough cover for our single-engined machines, as the amount called for is equivalent or less than what we already carry. A non-EC registered aircraft must carry that level of cover too if it is to appear in Europe. (Glacier Girl had the cover in place before her trip)

Once you hit 5000 kilos it jumps significantly, and once you top 20,000 (a B-17 weighs in at 22680) that is when the big money kicks in. The DC-6 is £115,542,250 😮 but at least that aircraft has a full C of A and can therefore operate for hire and reward.

This situation will definitely kill off the operation of large vintage aircraft in Europe 😡

What about money raised in other ways such as sponsorship or airshow appearance fees?

Yak 11,

Yes both of these idea have been discussed by many groups but the problem is this the regulating that both the CAA and EU put on flight ops make it rather hard for any US base Bomber to come over. As for airshow appearance by what I understand the fee would be so high that it wouldn’t be in the best interest of the folks putting on an airshow in the UK. To give you an idea if you want a B-17 to come to your show it will cost you the following,

Appearance fee $2500-5000 USD
Fuel at $3.50 Per gallon(for now)
Hotel Rooms for crew of 4-6
Rental Car(s)
Innsurrance $2500 USD

Now trying to get sponsorship is a nice idea but even Glacier girl couldn’t get and form of Sponsorship from any UK Companys.

Hell look at the Mustang gathering the Fuel Sponsor pulled out and most of the West Coast Mustang decide not to attend. The Folks at Geneseo are trying to have the largest P-40 Gathering but one of the major hitch’s is Fuel Cost the most that they will get is 5 or 6 East Coast based P-40s why because the cost of fuel. Even if all the owner of West Coast P-40 decide to wave their appearance fee’s it still will cost anywhere between 1500 to 4000 USD to fly a P-40 from the West Coast to Upstate New York.

This is why I say that while its a great idea that Liberty Belle is trying to come across the Pond the reality of it is that unless some major sponsor steps up with close 1 million USD then its not going to happen.

Bograt,

Hence one of the main reason the UK and Europe will never see any Yanks bring there birds over because of this rather stupid regulation.

I’m sorry to say but I don’t think you will see Liberty Belle or any other US based Bomber come across the Pond till the CAA and the EU come up with some sort of Regulation that exempts them from allowing paying passengers.

What about money raised in other ways such as sponsorship or airshow appearance fees?

Absolutely NOT allowed for this or any aircraft in this category to carry fare paying passengers in the UK. Ever.

The issue is with insurance cover, as the EC Regulation 785/2004 requires aircraft to carry high levels of cover. In the case of a B-17, this is over 61 million pounds Sterling. This cover would be necessary even for a short visit to the UK.

Bograt,

Hence one of the main reason the UK and Europe will never see any Yanks bring there birds over because of this rather stupid regulation.

I’m sorry to say but I don’t think you will see Liberty Belle or any other US based Bomber come across the Pond till the CAA and the EU come up with some sort of Regulation that exempts them from allowing paying passengers.

Rob,

Not to be the sour note on this whole thing but the folks at Liberty Belle have some rather large hoops to go thru before they can make the jump over the Pond one of them being getting the Okie Dokie from you very own CAA so they can have paying passengers come with them. The one of the many reason that they didn’t come the last few years is because of the CAA rules also their is some question about the EU laws also.

Absolutely NOT allowed for this or any aircraft in this category to carry fare paying passengers in the UK. Ever.

The issue is with insurance cover, as the EC Regulation 785/2004 requires aircraft to carry high levels of cover. In the case of a B-17, this is over 61 million pounds Sterling. This cover would be necessary even for a short visit to the UK.

Rob,

Not to be the sour note on this whole thing but the folks at Liberty Belle have some rather large hoops to go thru before they can make the jump over the Pond one of them being getting the Okie Dokie from you very own CAA so they can have paying passengers come with them. The one of the many reason that they didn’t come the last few years is because of the CAA rules also their is some question about the EU laws also. Some other things to keep in mind is the US Homeland Security might not like this little trip and put a nix on it, also fuel prices are going to be the real driving force if they can’t get someone to foot the fuel bill then it won’t happen and I got this from two well connect folks with-in the group.

Thanks for that insight Scorp. As per usual the red tape side of things are not expressed as you would hope. Still, it’s not completely ruled out yet. I look forward to you keeping us up to date with this large venture Belle could be undertaking.

Interesting comments about Pink Lady though my friend;)

Rob,

Not to be the sour note on this whole thing but the folks at Liberty Belle have some rather large hoops to go thru before they can make the jump over the Pond one of them being getting the Okie Dokie from you very own CAA so they can have paying passengers come with them. The one of the many reason that they didn’t come the last few years is because of the CAA rules also their is some question about the EU laws also. Some other things to keep in mind is the US Homeland Security might not like this little trip and put a nix on it, also fuel prices are going to be the real driving force if they can’t get someone to foot the fuel bill then it won’t happen and I got this from two well connect folks with-in the group.

As for Pink Lady you might be seeing it allot sooner then you think the scuttlebut in the States is that three well know collectors have ask for a price for her. And by what I understand the folks who own Pink Lady are looking at these with keen interested. What I’ve been told is two of the folks have given them till the end of March to make a decission.

I’d be absolutely amazed to see Pink Lady in the line up…she’s been grounded!!:cool:
Regards,
Keith

I did say if she flies again in my original post;)

Sally B and Liberty Bell together will still be a sight, even if Pink Lady don’t fly again.