Reading this latest diatribe I apologise but I can no longer sit by and bite my lip. Taking exception to Wikipedia for containing factual, accurate, balanced and PROVABLE FACT it seems that a certain Bader Biographer can not allow such gross effrontery to be made in case anybody in the world wishes to believe such nonsense as Bader having been anything other than a hotel guest in Liverpool once. I must point out here that whether or not Bader was at the Stork Hotel instead of Colditz, whether or not he was involved in some conspiracy, or whether or not he needed help to put on his legs I just don’t care. What I do care about is the spiteful arrogance of the author of a constantly changeable tale about someone who is long in the grave, who constantly demands proof that he is wrong and then rewrites portions of his tale courtesy of this and bends the tale to appear that he was right all along. However, what get’s my goat is that a balanced and accurate biography of G/C Bader on a valued educational resource is to be removed by this ‘purveyor of the truth’
Here is the link to a page which (currently) contains the following:
http://royalnavymedic1945.com/id41.html
“…the current Douglas Bader data pages provide a totally unbalanced and biased portrait of this great man, that presents a very unhealthy picture to paint for future generations, I SHALL DELETE the whole of the Douglas Bader section so that it can later be rebuilt to provide a more realistic, balanced and unbiased view that must include some of his less popular images, utterances and moments.”
Before I get accused of stealing text and copyright infringement by Mr Williams, I would like to quote him a point of law from the country in which he resides:
“In Australia, the grounds for fair dealing (edited to add the UK term ‘Fair Use’) are:
Research and study
Review and criticism
“Reporting the news”
Legal advice (although the Crown is deemed to own copyright in federal statutes, and each State in state statutes).
Australia has a deeming provision which guarantees that fair dealing applies if you photocopy either (not more than one chapter), or (less than 10%) of a book or journal (this was a result of a successful lawsuit brought against a university library for “authorisation” of patrons’ copyright infringement).
This of course now presumably adds me to the list of ‘internet terrorists’ and ‘book burning nazi’s’ but I was always taught about ‘sticks and stones’.
Mr Williams, I am sending you a link to this page in order that you are aware of it. My hands are held above the table. You are no longer banned from here so you may, if you wish, respond on here as well as on your own site.
By: Moggy C - 26th February 2007 at 23:33
So as to avoid us all getting suckered into this stupidity again I shall lock the thread.
No Mr Nobler-Than-Us-Veteran, not on orders from above, purely because I see no reason to play your silly little game.
Anybody feeling the need to continue the discussion can do so on Mr Williams’s guest book.
Moggy
Moderator
By: hpsauce - 26th February 2007 at 23:24
The disagreement seems to hinge over whether or not Douglas Bader visited England with the cooperation of both sides in 1941 and 42 I don’t remember which?
For me if Bader did visit England so what? How does this detract from the man’s achievements? Or cast a slur on his character? If anything it adds to his legend.
There are allot of conspiracy theories ….. The fact that may or may not have visited England or any other personal quirk he may have had wouldn’t reduce my respect or affection for him one bit, why would it?
What on earth is this utter tosh? Motivated by mild curiosity – I read as much WW2 aviation biog/autobiog as comes my way, including fairly recently the Burns book, “Bader, The Man and his Men” – I glance at this thread and find references to bizarre conspiracy theories I’d thankfully never heard of, but which rival the wackiest “Elvis is alive and living in Billericay” garbage to be found anywhere…
Haven’t you people got better things to discuss, such as whether the moon is made of green cheese?
If there are any rational folk among you, my apologies for being so blunt, but really…
Bader was undoubtedly a great man in his way, if widely disliked by many people who nevertheless respected his courage and leadership. Let’s not trivialise his memory with childish spats and witless speculation.
hps
By: Arabella-Cox - 26th February 2007 at 22:32
Actually I’m just peeved that I seem to have dropped off his radar altogether.
.Moggy
I’m sure we could ensure that you get your radar signature back, Moggy!:diablo:
By: Snapper - 26th February 2007 at 21:37
Well said Graham. Incidentally, the spirits I imagine to be very likely. As an infantryman I would bathe my feet in surgical spirit to toughen the skin. This (seemingly) reduced blistering, along with, of course, breaking boots properly. i imagine that the application of spirits to a stump would toughen the skin to help deter the effects of chafing from the legs. You just don’t smoke while applying it…..
By: Graham Adlam - 26th February 2007 at 21:13
A different view?
As someone who hasn’t been involved in this discussion and also someone who has no intention of upsetting anyone or getting into a slanging match with anyone. I don’t really understand the bad feeling that has developed. The disagreement seems to hinge over whether or not Douglas Bader visited England with the cooperation of both sides in 1941 and 42 I don’t remember which?
For me if Bader did visit England so what? How does this detract from the man’s achievements? Or cast a slur on his character? If anything it adds to his legend.
There are allot of conspiracy theories about allot of things and the actual things that MI5, MI6 and the Government get up to are even stranger. Bearing that in mind anything’s possible and it’s an intriguing theory.
I think the one big flaw in this story is quite simple. The author admits that Douglas was a very famous person, why would the Germans and the British take so much trouble to hide the fact they were to smuggle him back to England from other POW’s and then put him up in a very public hotel in Liverpool. The hotel manager and the author both admitted to knowing him by name. How long would it take for the story to get out and be all over the press, it just doesn’t add up does it?
On a more humorous note, the other thing that puzzles me is that he had to rub Metholated spirits into his stumps, wasn’t Bader a smoker?? This sounds like a recipe for disaster, I’m no doctor but this sounds a little bizarre?
Bader was a determined and brave man, the Pilot’s of that period have I have been privileged to meet have been a humorous bunch, probably a prerequisite of survival in those dark times, I am sure Douglas would have a good laugh about the minute details of his life being put under a microscope. To me Bader and his Peers were the Hero’s of our time because of what they achieved against all odds with incredible courage. The fact that may or may not have visited England or any other personal quirk he may have had wouldn’t reduce my respect or affection for him one bit, why would it?
By: Arabella-Cox - 26th February 2007 at 17:54
He’s actively been posting various baits trying to stir up a fight with this forum for several weeks recently.
I take Snappers point 100% about Wikipedia, and Webpilot is quite correct to say that Mr Williams has been spoiling for a fight and dangling “bait”. I am on his very long hit/hate list it seems, but as Snapper said….”sticks and stones etc etc”. In my view, his rants are best ignored. To start with it was all mildly curious…then amusing. But its way past that now and I have seen the foul personal e-mails he has sent to other forum members quite recently. I think that to an extent we are all guilty of feeding the oxygen he craves and to extent even this post is adding to that. Maybe we should now all just ignore him, in totality, for lent?
By: WebPilot - 26th February 2007 at 15:29
He doesn’t want to post on here I guess. Or maybe he was calling my bluff. Whatever, it’s posted.
He’s actively been posting various baits trying to stir up a fight with this forum for several weeks recently.
By: Moggy C - 26th February 2007 at 15:11
Actually I’m just peeved that I seem to have dropped off his radar altogether.
It became a badge of honour to be singled out for repetitive and badly spelled homophobic abuse in his little cesspit of lies and self aggrandisement.
Moggy
By: Snapper - 26th February 2007 at 15:02
He doesn’t want to post on here I guess. Or maybe he was calling my bluff. Whatever, it’s posted.
By: Moggy C - 26th February 2007 at 14:43
Ken has asked me to post this link to his guestbook.
Why didn’t he post it himself?
His one month ban for persistent abusive postings ended many months ago.
As long as he abides by the rules there is no reason for him not to post here.
Moggy
By: Eddie - 26th February 2007 at 13:11
Looking at the Bader page, it appears that the deletion campaign was started yesterday. Fortunately vigilant users have been consistently reverting the edits – a great thing with Wikipedia is that it’s so easy to fix vandalism!
By: Snapper - 26th February 2007 at 12:56
Well done for what? All i’ve done is bring attention to a fact.
Ken has asked me to post this link to his guestbook. I have suggested that he may post them in total if he wishes, to balance things:
By: TEEJ - 26th February 2007 at 12:11
Snapper,
Well done! Unbelievable the lengths that some people will go to in their beliefs.
By: WebPilot - 26th February 2007 at 11:27
Wikipedia note the following in their advice on page “vandalism”:
“Intentionally making non-constructive edits to Wikipedia will result in a block or permanent ban”.
Wikipedia have been made aware of the “threat” to delete the Bader biographical details and this will be implemented if necessary.
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February 26, 2007 at 10:27 am