Bader thread split, moved and closed? I disagree.

I think that is a better solution than deleting the thread.

That bit of forum unpleasantness should stand as a reminder of what a particularly nasty piece of work he is.

M

Right, if Ken is banned for a month, then he can no longer defend himself and therefore this thread should be locked for one month too. I started it, and i’m drawing a line under it.

Moggy, please lock. Thank you.

I think Ken has lost any rights to “defend himself” with his last contribution.

Right, if Ken is banned for a month, then he can no longer defend himself and therefore this thread should be locked for one month too. I started it, and i’m drawing a line under it.

Moggy, please lock. Thank you.

You have to wonder there is why such rage from him. I’m amazed he’s not given himself a heart attack.

I suspect we’re dealing with less an honourable veteran and more with your common or garden internet troll.

Damie,

I am about to be expelled from this miserable forum because what I want to say to a nasty little P***K such as you is probably unprintable and,your mate the neutered Moggy, who has no more ide of moderating than a deaf dumb and blind monkey, is rubbing his hands with glee to see me go and being kicked out for putting you all into the too hard basket. Whoever you are mate if you were on fire I would not P*SS on you, there are no words that would describe such a low form of life as you. PLease join up and go to Iraq and volunteer rto become a human bomb.

You mate should be effing lynched by any sane members left in this Form and I hope next time you slander a Veteran that he lives in your area and able to come round and beat the s**t out of you you miserable little ass whole.

By the way have you stopped beating your wife yet?

I’m outa here – where’s the effing exit?

Wow, he’s more volatile than R Weaver!

I fear Mr Williams has acheived the martyrdom he sought.

The Webmaster would not be happy were I to let that tirade pass.

One month ban from now.

Moggy
Moderator

Damie,

I am about to be expelled from this miserable forum because what I want to say to a nasty little P***K such as you is probably unprintable and,your mate the neutered Moggy, who has no more ide of moderating than a deaf dumb and blind monkey, is rubbing his hands with glee to see me go and being kicked out for putting you all into the too hard basket. Whoever you are mate if you were on fire I would not P*SS on you, there are no words that would describe such a low form of life as you. PLease join up and go to Iraq and volunteer rto become a human bomb.

You mate should be effing lynched by any sane members left in this Form and I hope next time you slander a Veteran that he lives in your area and able to come round and beat the s**t out of you you miserable little ass whole.

By the way have you stopped beating your wife yet?

I’m outa here – where’s the effing exit?

And so you reveal yourself for the nasty bit of work you are, all the above invective because someone had the temerity to say nothing stronger than “I don’t believe you”. I think this really gives the lie to your whole “story”.

Don’t let the door hit your backside on the way out and don’t come back.

But you havent mentioned the complaints sent to the Webmaster…..Are these monitored/censured by the mods first?

No, they go to the Webmaster direct, no-one else, if sent by PM. That’s what Moggy meant about PM’s being ‘private’.

That effing that.

Ken, we don’t believe you. Nobody does. You are merely holding yourself up for ridicule. If you really are a veteran as you claim this is a great shame, as apparently dotty old blokes (if you are indeed old) with war records should be afforded a bit more respect. Alas it is your own actions that have removed this respect in your own case. Enjoy your retirement and do not waste any more of it here. Please.

Damie,

I am about to be expelled from this miserable forum because what I want to say to a nasty little P***K such as you is probably unprintable and,your mate the neutered Moggy, who has no more ide of moderating than a deaf dumb and blind monkey, is rubbing his hands with glee to see me go and being kicked out for putting you all into the too hard basket. Whoever you are mate if you were on fire I would not P*SS on you, there are no words that would describe such a low form of life as you. PLease join up and go to Iraq and volunteer rto become a human bomb.

You mate should be effing lynched by any sane members left in this Form and I hope next time you slander a Veteran that he lives in your area and able to come round and beat the s**t out of you you miserable little ass whole.

By the way have you stopped beating your wife yet?

I’m outa here – where’s the effing exit?

If I requested the Webmaster took no action against Williams I can hardly suggest others are disciplined. Since you seem keen to pursue this you might like to PM me the instances where you think that Williams was personally attacked rather than having his fairy tale criticised.

And PM stands for ‘Private’ message. They are just that.

Thanks but i think this is better discussed in open forum…

and i will take your “friendly” advice on PM’s under advisement ..I have heard different but will wait for further evidence before stating same as a fact.

But you havent mentioned the complaints sent to the Webmaster…..Are these monitored/censured by the mods first?

now this is more like it…..

reasoned arguments ..

and i hope Ken reacts with restraint in replying!!! 😀

mind you if the man wants to ” waste ” his time its his to waste!! 😀

Various people have tried reasoned argument before – Johnathan F for one- and just got abuse that he dared to question Ken!

Sure, it’s his time to waste but at 83 I’d stop faffing about with such nonsense and do something meaningful.

“Virtually all” ….. what about the rest???

Are complaints and PM’s to the Webmaster viewed & censored by anyone before reaching the W/Master?

If I requested the Webmaster took no action against Williams I can hardly suggest others are disciplined. Since you seem keen to pursue this you might like to PM me the instances where you think that Williams was personally attacked rather than having his fairy tale criticised.

And PM stands for ‘Private’ message. They are just that.

Thank you Ken for what I personally consider to be a very well written and well reasoned response.

Definately!!!!

and good nite all !!

The problem here, Kenneth, is that you yourself are not dispassionate regarding this story. You have absolutely no evidence of Bader’s alleged release to Liverpool but rather than using Occam’s Razor you have convinced yourself that you met Bader and rather than try to prove that central fact you are looking to find reasons that would explain why he might have been there. I have read your webpages however there is absolutely nothing of substance within your “researches”. All you have are theories built on possibilities and assumptions.

For example – you say that Bader was (possibly) taken to Eire, the nearest neutral territory and then by ship to the nearest British port – Liverpool – for leg fitting. The nearest port to Eire is not Liverpool, it’s Fishguard by a considerable differance and given that the leg people were at Roehampton such a destination would probably be more logical than Liverpool. There are so many holes in your story that “dispassionate” analysis makes it impossible to accept.

Thank you for accepting that the vitriol was not one sided, but as Damian B says, please enjoy your retirement and stop wasting your time in chasing shadows, and ours.

now this is more like it…..

for the most part !!! 🙂 …reasoned arguments & facts..

and i hope Ken reacts with restraint in replying!!! 😀

mind you if the man wants to ” waste ” his time its his to waste!! 😀

“I was hopeful that members of the Forum may have matured enough to look at my story dispassionately and then banded together to make a concerted effort to assist this tired old man solve his puzzle – but no, many of you are so happy to play silly games on what should have been a worthwhile and useful Forum.

That’s all I want to say but would ask that all those immature folk among you to just give me a break form all the funny gags – OK? And of course please qualify that you have read my book in FULL if you want to rubbish me and my story, I can live with that, but don’t expect me to treat you kindly if you start bad mouthing me without having read all that I have written as a reference – now that’s fair I believe! “

Ok so is this an unreasonable request? fine if you dont wish to read the book….but at least show the sort of restraint requested as some of our mods seem incapable of “imposing ” or indeed acting with same.

If you have the time and inclination to check the thread you will find that Mr Williams was the source of virtually all the personal abuse. Other posters were very restrained, even under unwarranted attack, though I seem to recall one or two of them retaliating.

well before you start having a go at me as well…..

I HAVE gone through the tread, and if you had taken the time to read what i have said to you and to others you would have seen that i mentioned Ken going OTT !!!!

But on this and previous incarnations of the same Bader debate the amount personal abuse & silly remarks directed against him and OTHERS is a very poor reflection on some contributers ,some of the moderators , and on this forum as a whole.

So back to my question which you have only partially answered:

“Virtually all” ….. what about the rest???

or is this another example of Moderators taking sides??

Are complaints and PM’s to the Webmaster viewed & censored by anyone before reaching the W/Master?

Given all that, the next question of course is not, DID Bader visit Liverpool in 1942 but WHEN and WHY was he there – someone in a high place (Bader for sure) has the answers and these are the answers I shall strive to find until I drop of my unsteady perch.

The problem here, Kenneth, is that you yourself are not dispassionate regarding this story. You have absolutely no evidence of Bader’s alleged release to Liverpool but rather than using Occam’s Razor you have convinced yourself that you met Bader and rather than try to prove that central fact you are looking to find reasons that would explain why he might have been there. I have read your webpages however there is absolutely nothing of substance within your “researches”. All you have are theories built on possibilities and assumptions.

For example – you say that Bader was (possibly) taken to Eire, the nearest neutral territory and then by ship to the nearest British port – Liverpool – for leg fitting. The nearest port to Eire is not Liverpool, it’s Fishguard by a considerable differance and given that the leg people were at Roehampton such a destination would probably be more logical than Liverpool. There are so many holes in your story that “dispassionate” analysis makes it impossible to accept.

Thank you for accepting that the vitriol was not one sided, but as Damian B says, please enjoy your retirement and stop wasting your time in chasing shadows, and ours.

Thank you Ken for what I personally consider to be a very well written and well reasoned response.

However, I say to you all now. that like it or not, my story is 100% solid gold factual.

😀 😀 😀 😀 😀

Oddest use of the word ‘factual’ I have ever come across.

Moggy

Half an hours typing and the therad is closed? Tough, you can read my response.

Umm, I beg to differ, firmly supporting Ken here on this one. His status as a veteran has been called into question and he has responded. Incidentally, I know many veterans (from most branches of the forces) some with just campaign medals and some who have been awarded others for gallantry – I also know some whose evidence (ie logbooks and ORB’s) record such experiences as to make you question how anyone could face things like this night after night. I can honestly say that I know some very humble and self effacing ones, some garrulous ones and some who are downright churlish, rude, arrogant and/or abrupt. When an almost entire population of many countries is bandied together under the term veteran, it is wise to avoid the assumption that all are/were perfect. Don’t tar them all with the same brush, good tar or bad, as it were.

Now, who moved the therad? Moggy, put it back at once. This is wrong, and I also believe it should have remained attached to it’s other half. Neither thread are of archival benefit anyway and so this merely makes more tangents and variables available.

Furtehrmore, taking the **** out of kens name just because he shares it with the Carry On actor is pretty puerile, dont you think? Hell, mine (Mark Crame) sounds like paper folding. Tell me that to my face and I’d ******* chin you. Mind you, Dilips ‘Wizard of Oz’ is 100% pure gold, that was really good.

Ken, the onus is, actually, on you to either prove that you met Bader, or that he was in fact present, or COULD HAVE BEEN for people to believe it – not for anyone to prove otherwise as all *available* archive, published and historical documentary purports otherwise. Accepted fact (note the word accepted) is that Bader wasn’t possibly at the Stork, from a myriad of, nay all creditable and respected sources.

As for taking Steve Irwins name in vain, I defy anyone on here to tell me it caused them personal offence. Have none of you chuckled over the various jokes doing the rounds? Sick or not, reprehensible or not, not a laughing matter or not, those comments do not merit the responses.

Right, re-merge and replace thiese two threads to hysterical aviation and seconds out…

(oh, and for the record, sorry Ken, but I am also a doubter. No offence to you on a personal level, I just don’t see how it can have been so. I am willing to be proved otherwise. Furthermore, the article I posted for you contained nothing that I would describe as ilustrating anything about his being in Liverpool.)

Now, Gentlemen. The thread was no doubt closed due to personal abuse rather than the topic etc. Can we please now stay on track without sniping at each other in a snide way and have a REASONED DEBATE. I for one found the thread illuminating.

A MESSAGE TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS

I would like to make a number of things clear to both my supporters and detractors postings in this place that have generated a large amount of vitriol in the many comments/remarks/statements etc made on this Forum.

I accept my share of blame for some of this vitriol because as you have probably gathered by now, that I do not suffer apparent fools gladly, particularly when such fools condemn my writings out of hand without the benefit of having FULLY read and considered my work.

Please consider this. I will be 83 in November and have been pursuing the answer to this Enigma as I call it, for three years.
All I have ever claimed is that met Douglas Bader during his brief stay at the now much ridiculed and maligned (by the uniformed) Stork Hotel in Liverpool and, that I was asked to assist him each morning with dressing his stumps, fitting his legs and harness then helping him to dress – that is all I claim. I then state CATEGORICALLY in my Bader Enigma section, as those who have read my book will know, THAT I CANNOT CORROBORATE THIS MEETING so why the Hell would I continue with a “Concoction” as “Moggy” so terribly wrongly labels my efforts, if I had not really met DB?

However, I say to you all now. that like it or not, my story is 100% solid gold factual.

The events pertaining to this Bader episode take up around 200 words or so in my long three part autobiography and that is all. Douglas Bader is not ever mentioned again in my story until about 60 years later!

Those apparently very few of you who may have actually read my Trilogy will be familiar with the events that lead up to me being told by a reader that the events that I described could not theoretically have happened! You will also then know of the commencement of a quest that I have called THE BADER ENIGMA. The rest is history and the Bader Enigma is still unsolved but, a great deal of very interesting information and facts have come to light in the last 3 years and that, is as far as I intend to go down that road now.

If you HAVE read the COMPLETE Trilogy you will have to fairly concede that I am certainly not a wannabe, a longing that some Forum members appear to telegraph to all and sundry.
I have lead a most interesting and satisfying and I would say spectacular life for these last 83 years and I have no need for reflected glory or wish that I had done this or that as my life has been so full that there was little time to do anything else. Of course many of you will now be thinking what a right bighead this old fool is. Fine, go for it and think what you will, but, if you have time to read my whole work and are not convinced that I have no need to be a wannabe then you are beyond help. If you do take the time to read my book as now nearly 30,000 others have, you will find much to entertain and it should prove to be very thought provoking – give it a try you could just enjoy it in spite of your bias.

So, now having established that I am not a wannabe or a Walter Mitty (hi! some forum members) why do you think I am putting myself on public display for all and sundry to observe, analyze and if they feel so inclined attempt to shoot me down in flames (how does it go, Tallyho chaps! Three bandits at 1430 hours!)

I will tell you why I continue this highly complex and it seems controversial quest… it is simply because sooner rather than later (my age you know!) I would like to see the facts released or unearthed as they undoubtedly will but not probably in my lifetime but most assuredly in your lifetimes. I would just love to be there see your reaction poor old mixed up Liverpudlian Moggy but then again, I doubt that if Bader himself came back to confirm my story that you would even believe him!

I don’t need any lime light, I have had a surfeit of it. Believe me I just want the truth of this matter, is that unreasonable? Is it too much to ask people to help me with finding the key to the riddle? It would seem that the answer to my last question here is a resounding NO! at least in the case of this hostile Forum.

Open minds and a willingness to investigate rather than denigrate are a must for embarking on such a convoluted and serious subject as, was Bader shot down or did he collide with an Me 109? And on this subject what do you guys think NOW of “historical statements of fact” in relation to this controversial matter, surely there must be the “accepted and learned” explanation of the facts? Where is it now? Who will find it?

Given all that, the next question of course is not, DID Bader visit Liverpool in 1942 but WHEN and WHY was he there – someone in a high place (Bader for sure) has the answers and these are the answers I shall strive to find until I drop of my unsteady perch.

I was hopeful that members of the Forum may have matured enough to look at my story dispassionately and then banded together to make a concerted effort to assist this tired old man solve his puzzle – but no, many of you are so happy to play silly games on what should have been a worthwhile and useful Forum.

That’s all I want to say but would ask that all those immature folk among you to just give me a break form all the funny gags – OK? And of course please qualify that you have read my book in FULL if you want to rubbish me and my story, I can live with that, but don’t expect me to treat you kindly if you start bad mouthing me without having read all that I have written as a reference – now that’s fair I believe!

Kenneth Williams