Bader's Loss in August 1941

With reference to German POWs working on farms I know of one German (Downed Luftwaffe) who worked on a farm near Lichfield whilst detained. He became involved then married the farmers daughter. Subsequently they inherited the farm and he prepared a strip for light a/c.
Shenstone. Later on moving to Catthorpe I learned of further German & italian prisoners working on local farms, one of whom taught one of my customers (now 75) how to tie a young pigeon with string to its leg whilst in the nest so that it could be harvested when fully grown, as fully grown but tender meat.

Apologies to veggies or other non combatants!!

My father made friends with an Italian POW (he was captured in the desert campaign) who worked on the farms around Devizes, Wiltshire. We went out and stayed with him in the 1960’s and regularly we would receive food parcels at Christmas containing a Parmesan Wheel and Italian wine, his Son in the 1970’s and later his grandson in the 1990’s came over to stay with us to improve his English after his University studies.

Nope

It’s La Tour in The Colditz Story

http://youtu.be/0eeSYvxVFUw

http://movie-dude.co.uk/Eugene%20Deckers.htm

Regards
Ross

Sure I read it somewhere as well! Probably a well told tale 🙂

Thanks – that would have been my second guess!

Nope

It’s La Tour in The Colditz Story

http://youtu.be/0eeSYvxVFUw

http://movie-dude.co.uk/Eugene%20Deckers.htm

Regards
Ross

Not from Stalag 17 is it, by any chance? It sounds familiar.

Excellent ! Thats brought a smile. Bader would have appreciated that one.

I believe I am correct in saying that officers could volunteer for work judging by some of the MI9 debriefs I have seen.
‘.

I don’t recall where I read it, but I remember this possibly apocryphal
exchange between a German officer and a newly captured Brit (commissioned or otherwise, I don’t recall)

German: Will any of you men work for the Reich? You will be well treated
Brit: I will work for you. I would rather work for one hundred Germans than one British man
German: excellent. What is your trade?
Brit: undertaker

Etc

I know that round here, being a rural area, that many German and Italian POWs were employed on farms during the war; there was a young German POW who was kept ‘prisoner’ in an (unlocked?) garage not half a mile from where I am sitting now.

Absolutely. My grandfather had Italian POW labouring on our farm during the war years. My mother remembers as a child being told to stay away from them, but that they were no trouble!

I believe I am correct in saying that officers could volunteer for work judging by some of the MI9 debriefs I have seen.

For example, Fg Off Peter Cazenove (92 Squadron pilot of Spitfire P9374) asked to be allowed to work on farms according to the MI9 report.

In his case, it was denied – but almost certainly due to his previous escape ‘record’.

Working German POWs

We know this to be true; even from our popular media portrayal of POW life…

…what was it that Alec Guinness objected to in Bridge on the River Kwai? He objected, or rather his character objected, to officers being required to do manual labour; he was quite happy for the other-ranks to work for the Japanese (after quoting the Geneva Convention to support his case).

I know that round here, being a rural area, that many German and Italian POWs were employed on farms during the war; there was a young German POW who was kept ‘prisoner’ in an (unlocked?) garage not half a mile from where I am sitting now.

With reference to German POWs working on farms I know of one German (Downed Luftwaffe) who worked on a farm near Lichfield whilst detained. He became involved then married the farmers daughter. Subsequently they inherited the farm and he prepared a strip for light a/c.
Shenstone. Later on moving to Catthorpe I learned of further German & italian prisoners working on local farms, one of whom taught one of my customers (now 75) how to tie a young pigeon with string to its leg whilst in the nest so that it could be harvested when fully grown, as fully grown but tender meat.

Apologies to veggies or other non combatants!!

That is something I didn’t know. Are you sure ? Non coms were required under the Geneva convention to work for the opposition ? That would be – in the old phraseology – “bringing aid and comfort to the enemy” and under British Military law, an indictable offence.

We know this to be true; even from our popular media portrayal of POW life…

…what was it that Alec Guinness objected to in ‘Bridge on the River Kwai’? He objected, or rather his character objected, to officers being required to do manual labour; he was quite happy for the other-ranks to work for the Japanese (after quoting the Geneva Convention to support his case).

I know that round here, being a rural area, that many German and Italian POWs were employed on farms during the war; there was a young German POW who was kept ‘prisoner’ in an (unlocked?) garage not half a mile from where I am sitting now.

Tangmere. Yes, it is absolutely worth pointing out.

Antoni & Paul

Thank you for the links.

The book ‘The Sgt Escapers’ covers the topic, although a long time since I read it and I cannot now recall much of its detail.

However, another element of ‘escape’ is ‘evasion’ from capture, and looking at Oliver Clutton-Brock’s excellent tome I’d say that of the 2,600 RAF evaders a very high percentage of them were Sgts and probably, on first glance, I’d say much more than half of them.

Thought it was just worth pointing this out.

Re 40 & 47

Webpilot,

Bader knew – as few did – apparently, that it was his clear duty as a PoW, if not an officer in the RAF, to cause as much obstruction, hindrance and trouble to the enemy as possible. He, like all PoWs wasn’t ‘excused duties’ because he was a PoW. It is a pity that more didn’t follow Bader’s stirring example.

.

I really don’t think that is the case. Most if not all commissioned POW knew it was their duty to obstruct the enemy and to escape if possible. Most found ways to do this There certainly were those content to sit in comparative safety but these were I am sure a minority. bader found one way to do it, others did it in other ways.

The non commissioned aspect is very much a way that the narrative of the war became mythologised in the immediate post war and 50s periods. Sgt pilots were forgotten and so on. This is part of that myth that has only recently recently been debunked

Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War. Geneva, 27 July 1929.
*
Part III : Captivity #Section III : Work of prisoners of war #Chapter 1 : General – Art. 27.
Art. 27. Belligerents may employ as workmen prisoners of war who are physically fit, other than officers and persons of equivalent statue, according to their rink and their ability.
Nevertheless, if officers or persons of equivalent status ask for suitable work, this shall be found for them as far as possible.
Non-commissioned officers who are prisoners of war may be compelled to undertake only supervisory work, unless they expressly request remunerative occupation.
During the whole period of captivity, belligerents are required to admit prisoners of war who are victims of accidents at work to the benefit of provisions applicable to workmen of the same category under the legislation of the detaining Power. As regards prisoners of war to whom these legal provisions could not be applied by reason of the legislation of that Power, the latter undertakes to recommend to its legislative body all proper measures for the equitable compensation of the victims.
*
Part III : Captivity #Section III : Work of prisoners of war #Chapter 2 : Organization of work – Art. 28.
Art. 28. The detaining Power shall assume entire responsibility for the maintenance, care, treatment and the payment of the wages of prisoners of war working for private individuals.

*
Part III : Captivity #Section III : Work of prisoners of war #Chapter 2 : Organization of work – Art. 29.
Art. 29. No prisoner of war may be employed on work for which he is physically unsuited.*
*
Part III : Captivity #Section III : Work of prisoners of war #Chapter 2 : Organization of work – Art. 30.
Art. 30. The duration of the daily work of prisoners of war, including the time of the journey to and from work, shall not be excessive and shall in no case exceed that permitted for civil workers of the locality employed on the same work. Each prisoner shall be allowed a rest of twenty-four consecutive hours each week, preferably on Sunday.
*
Part III : Captivity #Section III : Work of prisoners of war #Chapter 3 : Prohibited work – Art. 31.
Art. 31. Work done by prisoners of war shall have no direct connection with the operations of the war. In particular, it is forbidden to employ prisoners in the manufacture or transport of arms or munitions of any kind, or on the transport of material destined for combatant units.
In the event of violation of the provisions of the preceding paragraph, prisoners are at liberty, after performing or commencing to perform the order, to have their complaints presented through the intermediary of the prisoners’ representatives whose functions are described in Articles 43*and 44, or, in the absence of a prisoners’ representative, through the intermediary of the representatives of the protecting Power.
*
Part III : Captivity #Section III : Work of prisoners of war #Chapter 3 : Prohibited work – Art. 32.
Art. 32. It is forbidden to employ prisoners of war on unhealthy or dangerous work. Conditions of work shall not be rendered more arduous by disciplinary measures.
*
Part III : Captivity #Section III : Work of prisoners of war #Chapter 4 : Labour detachments – Art. 33.
Art. 33. Conditions governing labour detachments shall be similar to those of prisoners-of-war camps, particularly as concerns hygienic conditions, food, care in case of accidents or sickness, correspondence, and the reception of parcels.
Every labour detachment shall be attached to a prisoners’ camp. The commander of this camp shall be responsible for the observance in the labour detachment of the provisions of the present Convention.
*
Part III : Captivity #Section III : Work of prisoners of war #Chapter 5 : Pay – Art. 34.
Art. 34. Prisoners of war shall not receive pay for work in connection with the administration, internal arrangement and maintenance of camps.
Prisoners employed on other work shall be entitled to a rate of pay, to be fixed by agreements between the belligerents.
These agreements shall also specify the portion which may be retained by the camp administration, the amount which shall belong to the prisoner of war and the manner in which this amount shall be placed at his disposal during the period of his captivity.

Pending the conclusion of the said agreements, remuneration of the work of prisoners shall be fixed according to the following standards:
(a) Work done for the State shall be paid for according to the rates in force for soldiers of the national forces doing the same work, or, if no such rates exist, according to a tariff corresponding to the work executed.
(b) When the work is done for other public administrations or for private individuals, the conditions shall be settled in agreement with the military authorities.
The pay which remains to the credit of a prisoner shall be remitted to him on the termination of his captivity. In case of death, it shall be remitted through the diplomatic channel to the heirs of the deceased.

Section 3 of the 1929 Geneva Convention refers to prisoners working.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/geneva02.asp

Re 57

Creaking door

That is something I didn’t know. Are you sure ? Non coms were required under the Geneva convention to work for the opposition ? That would be – in the old phraseology – “bringing aid and comfort to the enemy” and under British Military law, an indictable offence.

They could always refuse but, if work was tied to food ??

It is a matter of deep interest that the numbers of successful and un-successful escape attempts seem to be dominated by commissioned ranks rather than non commissioned. Is there some explanation?

Non-commissioned ranks were required (even under the terms of the Geneva Convention) to work full-time for the enemy; if nothing else these men didn’t have the luxury of time that was available to the officers.

Of course this full-time work meant that they were often working outside of the wire of a POW camp so there may have been more opportunity for escape; in fact a number of officer POWs did change identities with other-ranks for this very reason. However, without the complicated and time-consuming production of false documents and escape-clothing the chances for a successful ‘home-run’ would be greatly reduced.

I also do not know to what extent the external support for POW escape (through MI9) was directed towards officers as opposed to other-ranks. The part that this external support played in many successful ‘home-runs’ is often underplayed in the popular culture of POW escape (not least, in the past, for security reasons).

Also an escaped officer was probably more likely to get a book published than an escaped other-rank and it is through these books, and the subsequent films, that the popular perception of POW escape was created.

And potentially lethal in the Fighter-Leader role, sometimes, too.

And I don’t mean to the enemy.

Re 51, 52, 53
I would guess that an abiding disappointment for him as a PoW, would be to know that most of his fellow servicemen did not share his commitment.

I doubt that he overly worried about it !!
The other committed escapers merely went about things in a more subtle way.
Whilst Bader had exactly the right qualities to take over a disillusioned Hurricane squadron and get them operational…his other traits made him potentially lethal in the POW scenario !