Barak-8 – full-size mockup revealed

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If that does not work, and the horse/mule is just hell bent on dehydrating (suicidal horse/mule, dont believe me well mr. you just go ask the UN peacekeepers):

Combine 1 teaspoon salt with 2 tablespoons of applesauce. Put it in a syringe or de-worming tube and shoot it in the mouth. The salt should stimulate thirst.

Or

Try getting 1 tablespoon of corn syrup into the mouth. It will coat the tongue and compel the horse/mule to drink.

Oh now you can take over the replies to “savion”. 😀

Its a two stage missile, does the stage seperation present a problem in short range engagements?

Not really, its not like a ballistic missile with one stage falling off & the like AFAIK, its a dual pulse motor. The second motor is to avoid the problem of running on earlier energy & using it up – the target does a few maneuvers and your missile runs out of gas. So DRDL chose this path. Interestingly enough, even the Akash has the same logic in mind, it uses a ramjet & the range quoted is not ballistic/max range per se, but the range at which it can still maneuver under an active propulsion. So they decided to keep that same thing in mind & go for another approach to get the same desired result.

It will have a minimum range of around a km or so. The next layer will be of the SRSAM where DRDL (DRDO) is planning to use jet vanes (as on the AAD) but smaller ones out of new materials given the size of the missile.

There was talk that they will make the missile compatible with the Mk-41 launcher, what modifications are required to do so (make the missile compatible with other launchers)? Will that require consulting from US firms?

TBH, I never bothered to ask about it. What I do know however, is that cross compatability would help Israel as and when it deploys these systems. I would presume they would have to have some amount of OEM license/help in knowing the standard interfaces for the Mk41 & making the Barak compatible. Wonder which particular firm owns the right to the Mk41 or whether it is an industry standard unit or owned by the USG as its IP.

How much light? Even a spotlight wont be enough & I guess thats obvious.. as they say, you can lead a horse/mule etc to water but you cant make it drink.

Just keep some water in a bucket in front of them and let them be, aftersome time they drink on their own, if they are thirsty that is.

If that does not work, and the horse/mule is just hell bent on dehydrating (suicidal horse/mule, dont believe me well mr. you just go ask the UN peacekeepers):

Combine 1 teaspoon salt with 2 tablespoons of applesauce. Put it in a syringe or de-worming tube and shoot it in the mouth. The salt should stimulate thirst.

Or

Try getting 1 tablespoon of corn syrup into the mouth. It will coat the tongue and compel the horse/mule to drink.

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Its a two stage missile, does the stage seperation present a problem in short range engagements?

There was talk that they will make the missile compatible with the Mk-41 launcher, what modifications are required to do so (make the missile compatible with other launchers)? Will that require consulting from US firms?

No, it could not because development of the 9M96 missile family is all but complete, so little opportunity for Indian paticipation.

Heh, not to mention the radars, the TELs, the C3I hardware & software….

Not to mention the PRCs extensive exposure to the S-3XX family already…:cool:

No, I don’t know what Russia has “proven” in respect of R-77, maybe you can shed some light.

How much light? Even a spotlight wont be enough & I guess thats obvious.. as they say, you can lead a horse/mule etc to water but you cant make it drink.

As I understand that Israel will bring seeker technology in Barak-8, which India seems to regard well.

Not just seeker technology…oh, wait I explained that already. Lets file that under …”can lead a horse/mule to water….”

Especially since India colloborated with Russia on a missile program, even apart from the Brahmos which too, uses a Russian seeker. 😀

It was just an example, where Indian technology was preferred over Russia’s. So you get the drift, how much India thinks about russian electronics capabilities.

No, I dont get the drift, since I do know India is still working with Russia….on Electronics. Gawsh.

They started arriving with the planes, is it surprising??

To you, I guess. Since it was your claim that it was all ’90’s and India wasnt happy with the R-77, claims pulled out of thin air.

In reality though, R-77s are arriving even now. Series production y’know.

I think you should drop your abusive behavior towards forum members, if you want to stay little longer this time.

This is what Abhimanyou wrote here, so I enquired the same,
I do concur with him, that you seems to be the same Nick_76. Welcome back and be little respectful to the members.:diablo:

Gee diddums, correcting you from your erroneous claims is not abusive. Its factual, regardless of whom you have confused me with.

So next time dont ask for data, because it might just prove you wrong. Like this time. 😉

Yakhont was also complete…….still russia did co-developed. Isn’t it?

Which could have been done with Russia as well.

No, it could not because development of the 9M96 missile family is all but complete, so little opportunity for Indian paticipation.

It is not a non-confidence in Russian equipment but the possibility of joint development of a weapon which is new to both forces.

Which could have been done with Russia as well. Considering the successful development of MKI and Brahmos against nil with Israel…I would think that is that case -trust deficit in Russian systems.

. Also it is very likely that Indian components will be used by Israel unlike Russia in this case. So this is a win-win situation for both countries.

savion, Teer has very clearly stated what is the reason for co-operation with Israel in this case. It is not a non-confidence in Russian equipment but the possibility of joint development of a weapon which is new to both forces. India has been co-operating on this project with Israel based on its experience with Barak-I missile which was well like by Indian Navy. Also Israel has no equivalent system to Barak 2 and so they will be developing it as a greenfield project (though Barak-1 will be the base) and Indian scientists can contribute and learn better (than say with Russia, which has equivalent systems under service). Also it is very likely that Indian components will be used by Israel unlike Russia in this case. So this is a win-win situation for both countries.

I do concur with him, that you seems to be the same Nick_76. Welcome back and be little respectful to the members.

That respectful part may be true.

But I suspect you are a new incarnation of some one else as well :). How would you otherwise relate to Nick who must have been gone for some time now.

I think you should drop your abusive behavior towards forum members, if you want to stay little longer this time.

Teer brings a lot to the forum but sometimes his abuses far outweigh his contributions. He would be really good if he stopped abuses and personal attacks.

. Simply put, you’d know what Russia is already good at (and proven) and where India is still cooperating with Russia, versus where it is cooperating with Israel. But you cant understand it

No, I don’t know what Russia has “proven” in respect of R-77, maybe you can shed some light.

As I understand that Israel will bring seeker technology in Barak-8, which India seems to regard well.

I did’nt mention flight computers anywhere.
Second, whats mundane about a flight computer? A rugged, high G capable FC running a reliable, crash proof RTOS and an optimized flight control program, is one of the key aspects of missile technology.

It was just an example, where Indian technology was preferred over Russia’s. So you get the drift, how much India thinks about russian electronics capabilities.

BTW, India ordered 1600 R-77s in 2000 and 1075 have been delivered so far (SIPRI)- so much for the 90’s claim.

They started arriving with the planes, is it surprising??

I dont even know WTF you are talking about now…

I think you should drop your abusive behavior towards forum members, if you want to stay little longer this time.

This is what Abhimanyou wrote here, so I enquired the same,

Teer’s style of writing is similar to Nick_76, a former member who was banned earlier. Hence, the language used and ideas expressed are expected.

I do concur with him, that you seems to be the same Nick_76. Welcome back and be little respectful to the members.:diablo:

Why could it not be extended to R-77, I fail to understand, neither you provided clear answer.

Go look up what is in the R-77 missile versus what is in the Barak-8 SAM system, and you’ll get your answer. I already gave you a clear answer. Simply put, you’d know what Russia is already good at (and proven) and where India is still cooperating with Russia, versus where it is cooperating with Israel. But you cant understand it

A crying shame.

As anyone sees, even by your own admission some electronics systems were found wanting from Russia, like as mundane as Flight computers.

I did’nt mention flight computers anywhere.
Second, whats mundane about a flight computer? A rugged, high G capable FC running a reliable, crash proof RTOS and an optimized flight control program, is one of the key aspects of missile technology.

What were/are the alternatives BVR Missiles available for SU-30MKI, certainly not Derby.

You were the one talking about there being a problem with R-77, now that you cant find any problems and that deliveries havent been stopped or replaced by another program, it is this line…

You claimed:

About R-77, India did ordered lots and they do seem to have trusted at that time 90’s, but it does not seem the same after looking at Israeli inventory.

BTW, India ordered 1600 R-77s in 2000 and 1075 have been delivered so far (SIPRI)- so much for the 90’s claim.

Are you the same Nick_76, as alluded by Abhimanyu??

I dont even know WTF you are talking about now…

Savion,

There is some truth to the matter that in some cases, India finds Israel to a better alternative for codevelopment and that Russia may not meet its needs. Even in the Brahmos and MKI, India substituted some own systems since they found them performance wise, to be better than what Russia had.

But its not necessary that the same analogy can be extended to the R-77 purchase, which is entirely a different matter.

Why could it not be extended to R-77, I fail to understand, neither you provided clear answer.

As anyone sees, even by your own admission some electronics systems were found wanting from Russia, like as mundane as Flight computers.

.

And the R-77 deliveries are still continuing and have not been replaced by any Israeli alternative (such as the Derby). So in the case of the R-77, it seems to be a good piece of equipment.

What were/are the alternatives BVR Missiles available for SU-30MKI, certainly not Derby.

I have had occasion to discuss these issues with the guys leading these/similar projects, and the basic point is that India/DRDO will work with any vendor provided the specific conditions for that particular project are met (technology should be cutting edge, cost, true joint development)

Are you the same Nick_76, as alluded by Abhimanyu??

Savion,

There is some truth to the matter that in some cases, India finds Israel to a better alternative for codevelopment and that Russia may not meet its needs. Even in the Brahmos and MKI, India substituted some own systems since they found them performance wise, to be better than what Russia had.

But its not necessary that the same analogy can be extended to the R-77 purchase, which is entirely a different matter.

If such were indeed the case, then India would not cooperate with Russia on airborne (planar array radar components) – it has, nor would it use a Russian seeker for its local Astra missile project (it has). And the R-77 deliveries are still continuing and have not been replaced by any Israeli alternative (such as the Derby). So in the case of the R-77, it seems to be a good piece of equipment.

I have had occasion to discuss these issues with the guys leading these/similar projects, and the basic point is that India/DRDO will work with any vendor provided the specific conditions for that particular project are met (technology should be cutting edge, cost, true joint development) & of course, provided political issues dont arise (eg our land systems joint development with Denel could have led to many things, but it fell through because of allegations of corruption). And of course, the “other side” should see some business/strategic sense as well to be involved in a JV. In this case, Indian & Israeli funding/tech opens a new product line for IAI & brings associated systems/radars etc to market.

So as you can see there are many factors, not just one. Russia may simply not find it useful to work on a Barak class SAM when they already have BUKs, and then S-300s and now S-400’s. India on the other hand may prefer a Barak and gradually build it up to a longer range AD system.

India’s developing the entire missile with the Israelis, that means the entire missile development value chain, from designing sensors, to software, to setting up the production facilities. It will be in all probability, very similar to the Brahmos model but with more local content.

The Barak is a complete SAM system, not just the missile and will have special systems developed for it, including the radars.

The R-77, trust seems to be there- check SIPRI, the IAF has ordered 1600 rounds of the R-77.

I understand everyone one wants joint-development/local production/offset,, but the fact remains it is an upgrade of already available technologies for Israel. Same could have done from Russia, looking at the results of Brahmos.

But it looks India has reservation about electronics components of it, like radar, seeker, etc..

About R-77, India did ordered lots and they do seem to have trusted at that time 90’s, but it does not seem the same after looking at Israeli inventory.

That brings us to why India went to Israel for these ?? Just for seeker and Data Link???

The key to Barak-NG system is not the compact missile per say but the Elta 2248 AESA Naval Radar , that is like the most important component in the deal.

Jumping to a mature AESA system from Israel stable will help the IN leap frog bith in Technology and Capability , if the deal includes full TOT for 2248 so that we can customise it for our needs.

Russia could have given us a missile with a longer reach , but as far as mature AESA development goes for Naval Platform it still lacks the capability and is far from there , though they do have some mature PESA system.

That brings us to why India went to Israel for these ?? Just for seeker and Data Link???

If so, How much trust/lackof do IAF has in R-77???

India’s developing the entire missile with the Israelis, that means the entire missile development value chain, from designing sensors, to software, to setting up the production facilities. It will be in all probability, very similar to the Brahmos model but with more local content.

The Barak is a complete SAM system, not just the missile and will have special systems developed for it, including the radars.

The R-77, trust seems to be there- check SIPRI, the IAF has ordered 1600 rounds of the R-77.

More like the influence of Russian Jewish engineers emigrating to Israel.

Whats the differance?

Not just Jewish. Israel’s allowed in plenty of non-Jewish Russians, Ukrainians, etc.

That brings us to why India went to Israel for these ?? Just for seeker and Data Link???

If so, How much trust/lackof do IAF has in R-77???

More like the influence of Russian Jewish engineers emigrating to Israel.

Not just Jewish. Israel’s allowed in plenty of non-Jewish Russians, Ukrainians, etc.

More like the influence of Russian Jewish engineers emigrating to Israel.