Battle of Britain flying goggles ?

Hi

I have posted a couple of photos of a first pattern FAA helmet and the second pattern. They look very similar but have a few differences. The first pattern (with the B type receiver housings) doesn`t have the extra skirt of leather as mentioned by JDH1976, this has been removed (this is the same for all first pattern FAA helmets as my two friends both have them and they are the same) and the shape is slightly different to that of the second pattern. Secondly the front goggles strap is in a slightly different position (see photos) and the first pattern converted C type might have AM markings on it. Most first pattern also have the receiver housing which takes either receivers or Gosport tubes (mine doesn`t have this). Lastly the second pattern always has the crown and anchor stamp on the neck flap. I should also mention that I have never seen a converted C type helmet made from the Very first pattern C type, this is the one with only two studs on the front left (as you look at it) and with the one up one down goggle retaining straps. I hope that`s not too confusing. Flying clothing is the sort of thing that needs to handled to get a feel for what`s right or wrong as sometimes differences can be quite subtle. If I had a pound for every copy 32 pattern Mae West that I have seen that purports to be genuine I`d be a rich man.

First pattern FAA helmet

Second pattern FAA helmet

I should mention that earlier in the thread I said that there are four patterns of FAA C type helmets, while this is true I should also say that there is the other type as in JDH1976` photo. While this is obviously a flying helmet I didn`t include it in the four as strictly it is part of an immersion suit and not a flying helmet in it`s own right.

Bill
Nice pictures of your B type, a bit of a rare bird that one.
As you say, it was probably coastal command but there`s no way of telling. While MK Va`s were intended for Coastal Command I`m sure other units must have used them. I have several photos and film footage of MK Vb`s being worn by Mosquito crews and I also have a photo of a group of Spitfire pilots all wearing Vb`s.
With regard to the centre rest for the Va`s this is often missing. There were two types of fixing plates and one type had a sort of ratchet on them and possibly this was enough to hold the goggles up on their own and also the goggles came with a strap which could have been preferred to the fixing studs on the side of the helmet.
With regard to verdigris, I have always just removed it with a soft cloth and a bit of elbow grease.

Thanks again Banana splits, nicely put across and nice photos.

My B’Type with added extra stuff!

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Hopefully here are 10 pics of my B’ Type with added plates, MK1V, MKV, one with original stitching, the other now lightly tacked in place and clearly showing the leather forehead protector in situ plus a, ‘witness mark’ where third, forehead plate (hook) was originally.

Not 100% the name is Mason, but I think most likely…………there were two Masons with 235 squadron apparently…….who knows…….I think this helmet was likely Coastal Command.

Has the look of a helmet that’s, ‘been there’!

I suppose it is quite rare to see a B’ kitted out like this? I have seen a couple that have had the MKV plates fitted…………interestingly BOTH had the centre one missing!, I wonder if it was found to be uneccessary?

Anyone know how to deal with Verdigris on copper without damage to surrounding leather?

Forgot to mention, notice it has a receiver cover jammed inside which I cannot shift!

Hi Hawker. I have included a close up shot of one of my b type zip ears. I currently do not have a standard FAA c type but do have a FAA immersion helmet so have included a close up of that as the construction of ears to the purpose made FAA c types.

So in the B type photo you can see there is an extra skirt of leather between the body of the helmet and the tear drop shaped panel that for the sides of the earcup (hope that makes sense?) on the FAA immersion helmet this extra skirt is not present as the teardrop panels are sew directly to the body of the helmet in manufacture. [ATTACH=CONFIG]226146[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]226147[/ATTACH]

Hi thanks for the reply,

Photos make it very clear, i also noticed that the leather material on my F.A.A. flying helmet seems to have orange tinge to it. so makes sense that this differs from the first pattern.

So clearly a second pattern type helmet,thanks as always to everyone’s input.

Hi Bananasplits again thank you for your patience,the helmet i have looks the same as the first pattern c type that i have IE stitching leather panels etc, can you tell me what the differences are between the c type and the F.A.A. own pattern are.

Also the Zipped ear housings what the differences are as i at this current time only own a B type without ear covers…

Photos would be very handy to show the differences, as then i can get a better picture. (also would be nice to see)

Hi Hawker. I have included a close up shot of one of my b type zip ears. I currently do not have a standard FAA c type but do have a FAA immersion helmet so have included a close up of that as the construction of ears to the purpose made FAA c types.

So in the B type photo you can see there is an extra skirt of leather between the body of the helmet and the tear drop shaped panel that for the sides of the earcup (hope that makes sense?) on the FAA immersion helmet this extra skirt is not present as the teardrop panels are sew directly to the body of the helmet in manufacture. [ATTACH=CONFIG]226146[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]226147[/ATTACH]

Hi
The first pattern FAA helmets were converted C types but the second pattern were made especially for the FAA (not converted C types). The zipped ear housings are different on the first and second pattern with the first pattern being the type used on B type helmets whereas the second pattern helmet had purpose made ones which were factory fitted. The differences are subtle but once you know what to look for it’s obvious. I have all four variants if you want to see pictures. The second pattern helmets are pretty rare but the first pattern are extremely rare. Also you have to be careful as there are fakes of the first pattern around. I’m sorry if it all sounds a bit confusing. If you like headgear then Mick Prodgers book would be a good investment.
Scramble Bill, so the box came from Michael Young, there’s a name I have’nt heard for a long time. He used to get some quality kit. I still have several pieces I bought from him.

Hi Bananasplits again thank you for your patience,the helmet i have looks the same as the first pattern c type that i have IE stitching leather panels etc, can you tell me what the differences are between the c type and the F.A.A. own pattern are.

Also the Zipped ear housings what the differences are as i at this current time only own a B type without ear covers…

Photos would be very handy to show the differences, as then i can get a better picture. (also would be nice to see)

Hi
The helmet is a second pattern FAA helmet(nice to see it with the modifiers fitted). The first pattern were converted RAF C type helmets with B type ear pieces added. Second pattern were pretty much like C types but with zipped ear pieces instead of the rubber housings and a crown and anchor stamp on the chin flap. The third and fourth patterns were virtually identical to each other except for the addition of two extra straps on the back for the wiring loom. Both had elastic chin straps and were internally wired. The goggles look like MK IVb`s but I can`t enlarge the shots to get a close look.
I have to say I have never seen a spares box like that, it`s a bit like a cross between the leather box and the leatherette pouch. Nice item though.

Many thanks Bananasplits for your input once again, so the difference between first pattern F.A.A. and second pattern helmets were from what i can make out,they were both converted c types with B type ear pieces,and apart from the chin strap,of which the one i showed in the photo has a leather strap looks like Bennetts type. what other differences would deter the first pattern and second pattern?

By the way the goggle strap has embossed (AM WS & s ltd mark !VB 22c/157) so i guess that helps with the i.d. of the goggles.

Meant to say, concerning box, the inside base is felt lined and angled to accept a pair of angled lenses as fitted to MK1VA or B (most likely for B?) cannot be for MK1V goggles as they are 4 separate pieces.

The centre pocket is attached to one side of box and came with the part-flip shield as in my earlier picture of assorted plates / spanners.

I think its, ‘Leatherette’, the fastener is, ‘Newey’.

Came from one of Michael Young’s listings, a long time ago!

Has the standard loops for spanner and ‘lipstick!’

IT WAS EXPENSIVE! and he said in his description, ” never seen before”. My B’ Type came from M Y as well!

That does look like a rare varient spares box, least it is not one I have seen before. The ones I have are a smooth leather box with the 22c codes imbossed into it and what I take to be a later version which is a card construction similar in style to the MkVIII goggle box.

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As I haven’t really got any rare MK goggles, here is what I THINK I can safely say is a rare / scarce spares box……………………..unless you know different and im totally wrong?

Hi hawker 1966,
I would say definitely very tired MK1VB Goggles and looks like a ‘Navy’ Helmet, but I don’t know enough about these helmets to say late / early,

Set up looks like its’ been there’ and together I would say…nice to have the added plates for MK1V

Was this set up on Ebay by any chance? kinda looks familiar……..interesting set up.

Anyone new to collecting flying head gear / equipment would be well advised to purchase Mick Prodgers 3 superb volumes of reference works.

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Hi here are a few photos of what I believe to be a first pattern fleet air arm flying helmet and Mk 1V goggles (certainly seen some action)
Can anyone please confirm this.

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Wow…..Thanks for posting those banana splits fantastic, wish I had the D’ masks, microphones so as to make up ‘head’ displays….too expensive for me at the moment and, of course pretty rare and sought after items.

I will try and take some pics of my B’Type with the extra bits ! Only one of the MKV plates is sewn as it was originally, the other plate is in situ but has obviously come adrift and been lightly sewn back LUCKILY. It is interesting to see how the ‘original’ plate has been sewn over the MK1V plate.
The forehead protector is as grubby as the rest of the helmet, so I am convinced it has been there for a very long time.
Interestingly, both the leather strip and the MK1V plates seem to be a better quality than the ones that turn up in spares kits.
Judging by the worn areas on the plates, they appear to have been used.

Many thanks for all the above reply’s to this thread. i will try and post a photo of the first pattern F.A.A flying helmet and mk 1V goggles this week.

Very nice indeed!
I really must try and get a proper display together, I do have a loom plus receivers but have never put everything together on a head.
Did get a poly head but would have to chop its ears off to get helmet to fit!
The foam inners in my helmets ear pieces are baad! probably the original RAF ones….very crumbly! only see RCAF ones available these days.
The zip angles are the same as yours as well, though mine is fitted with slightly differing ear pieces…tapes different colours.
My helmet is by, Reliance’ and has that odd date of 1939-40 saw very similar on dealers list a while ago, same maker / condition.

My zip tapes are odd, it is not uncommon due to the ears being fitted at station rather than factory level so they must of got mis-matched fairly often.

The great thing about poly heads is that you can chop them to fit. If you do then glue some archival tissue pare over the whole thing with conservation grade PVA glue this stop the bits shedding onto your helmet, Allow to dry properly before putting helmet on though! I always put a stocking over the head before displaying a helmet as it knocks down the garish and distracting whiteness of them.

You could try over on the Commonwealth and RAF re-enactor and collectors forum if you are looking for RAF marked sponges as I bought a set from a chap who had several pairs available.

Yes the date bracket seems peculiar to Reliance helmets only seen it on theirs, quite a scarce maker too.

Very nice indeed!
I really must try and get a proper display together, I do have a loom plus receivers but have never put everything together on a head.
Did get a poly head but would have to chop its ears off to get helmet to fit!
The foam inners in my helmets ear pieces are baad! probably the original RAF ones….very crumbly! only see RCAF ones available these days.
The zip angles are the same as yours as well, though mine is fitted with slightly differing ear pieces…tapes different colours.
My helmet is by, Reliance’ and has that odd date of 1939-40 saw very similar on dealers list a while ago, same maker / condition.

Interestingly there was an Obituary photo on this forum recently and the guy POSS had cut-down MKV11…

MKVIIs were heavily moddified inservice which makes sense. If you had a pair then saw a pair of MKVIII you could not exchange the 7s for the newer goggles as they were not declared obsolete and still fit for service. What do you do? Get the tin snips out. I have seen severla pairs that have been moddified nd have apair myself.

And whilst we are doing a show and tell here’s my bob set up.

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Hi bananasplits,
Thanks for posting pic of your MK1VA Goggles.

Those helmet plates are pretty scarce as well! I have a B’ Type with all plates fitted but they are the later black variety, it also has the leather forehead strip fitted and a couple of plates for MKV Goggles sewn over the MK1V plates there was another fitted to centre forehead originally, mark left where it was sewn.
All very grubby, name inside, Mason, I think, with remains of service number.

Is that an original D’type mask?….something else I would love but too ‘rich’ for me now…

Yep, agree about those MKV11, AWFUL,WORTHLESS JUNK….my opinion!… I have one pair of MKV11, The second pair of goggles I purchased many years ago ( got a flip shield later) well-used and at some point in their history, the nose leather has been shortened…I believe this was done? but could just as well have been done post-war, motor cycling. I would rather have these than 10 pairs of those refinished ones!

Interestingly there was an Obituary photo on this forum recently and the guy POSS had cut-down MKV11…

I do have another pair of genuine MK111A luckily.

Those MK1VB in my picture, I have never been sure whether they are refinished or not? definitely got original pads…totally ‘volcanic’ when I got them they had a pair of 1950’s grey MKV111 motor cycle style lenses in them, the ones currently residing are badly delaminated but ORIGINAL…..

Best bargain I have ever had was a GENUINE pair of MK11 (Black frame variety) for, I think £48.00!

been lucky with all my MkIIIas (three pairs) all found in general antiques shops where they did not know what they were so where cheap and bang on. always difficult to judge things online. The ohter common one are the mint unissued MKVII which are referbured frames with new leather and strap from night simulation training goggles. MKVIIs just do not exist as unissed stocks. Unlike other early goggle types (MKIV wich can be found boxed unissed) they were not declared obsolete with the introduction of the MKVIII goggles and stocks were used up.

Hope none of you goggle collectors made the very expensive mistake I made when I purchased a pair of, ‘unissued’ MK111A, which turned out to be ( recently reliably informed by someone who knows their stuff) a product of , ‘British Collectibles’, in the US, no longer trading, but stock came to UK. at the time I was viewing on a ‘gadget’ as my computer had crashed, so didn’t see images properly…..got them, noticed one strap mount had split, looked closer…BEEN BROKEN THEN RESOLDERED..to fit a lookalike strap from RAF training goggles…anyway I was told they are– original, but refinished frames, repro lenses, replaced strap (the stitching where the strap meets the mounting is in a square where the standard stitching is always in two lines) with fake, badly stamped markings added.

So basically what I am left with, is four VERY EXPENSIVE reusable frame screws (sometimes missing from these goggles) the rest….JUNK….

To be fair to the dealer, he gave me the chance to return them but I kinda wanted them to be ‘right’…apparently I am in good company as dealers WERE fooled by these as well!