BBC 2 SUN-20/7/2014 21.30 (The Lancaster-Britains Flying Past with John Sergeant)

lancaster performance

Lancaster Mk I
Max Speed
287 mph at 11,500′
275 mph at 15,000′
260 mph at 21,000′

Cruising Speed
234 mph at 21,000′
200 mph at 15,000′

As flown by aging American film stars

I imagined his statement “the aircraft that won the war” would spark a debate on this forum

Nah, that’s because deep down everyone knows that the war was really won by the Blackburn Botha.

I caught the repeat the other night, I really enjoyed it, there was definitely a considerable amount of liquid in my eyes towards the end! I imagined his statement “the aircraft that won the war” would spark a debate on this forum

Just curious as to how much footage of Lancaster gunners shooting at things exists, given the RAF’s tendency to fly at night…Adrian

I take it you’ve never watched The Dam Busters, then? It features quite a lot of scenes of tail gunners in action. Some of the scenes looked to be of wartime origin, others were done in the studio.* Some of those scenes have been used in other documentaries about the bomber offensive/Lancaster/Dams Raid, so they ought to be available (for a fee). Appointment In London features at least one scene too, if I recall correctly.

There was even a fairground game I remember from my childhood – you put a coin in the slot and did your best to defend your bomber from attacks by various German nightfighters; all original footage too (albeit staged using captured enemy aircraft).

So the footage is out there, you just have to be determined to seek out the authentic stuff, and pay a fee to use it. Otherwise, go the cheap way and re-use the same old tired footage of different aeroplanes, even different Air Forces and hope the viewing public are too dim to spot it and/or too indifferent to complain about it.

If I were a self-professed Lancaster enthusiast like John Sergeant, I’d be ashamed to have my name associated with that programme.

* pedants will, of course, point out that the studio scenes quite clearly show the gunner using a Gyro Gun Sight which had not come into service at the time of the Dams Raid, but at least it’s more accurate than showing a waist gunner in a programme devoted to the Lancaster!

Just curious as to how much footage of Lancaster gunners shooting at things exists, given the RAF’s tendency to fly at night…

As for the documentary being another insult… well, we could all just ignore it utterly, if that makes you feel better? Let’s all just pretend it didn’t happen, just to keep a few pedants happy. Better? I hope you feel that’s a ridiculous argument, but that’s a logical extension of your viewpoint.

Adrian

Hi All,
Sorry about the misspelling of STIRLING but if you look in my second post I spelt it correctly:D, My point is if anybody when doing these documentary’s ever bothered just to ask if the clips and story’s are correct before airing they would be well received by all, it takes the **** out of the audience to treat them as one poster put it – ‘Alright for the general public’ that is no excuse if you are doing a documentary at least get the facts correct especially when involving personal tragedy’s. The bomber aircrew who had their lives taken had already been disrespected by having no official memorial also mentioned in my second post and IMO this latest documentary was just another insult and yes the BBC is not the only guilty party when doing this in fact the vast majority excel in having the wrong material portraying whatever.
Another point I was trying to make if they where as careful as they are when making other historical documentary’s and dramas then I would have more respect than I have, at the end of the day they are putting money before the true facts,continuity,etc.etc. as well as those who had their lives taken, as an example why so little mention of the Manchester ? without that the Lancaster would never have been created. I apologise to all who disagree with my opinion but remember that’s all it is they are like noses everybody has one and everybody’s is different. :eagerness:

Geoff.

Watched the first few minutes, saw stock footage of a B17 waist gunner whilst the narrative was about the perils of being a Lancaster gunner, turned off.

Your loss…..

I didn’t look for bloopers, but thoroughly enjoyed the documentary.

Watched the first few minutes, saw stock footage of a B17 waist gunner whilst the narrative was about the perils of being a Lancaster gunner, turned off.

On again tonight, for those who missed it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04bwhk8

Funnily enough, I was quite surprised by the relative paucity of random wrong aircraft creeping in (the Raymond Baxter Spitfire documentary had a P47 in it, so it’s hardly a new thing). Yes, there was a Stirling, I’m reasonably certain the same shot of a B17 crept in a couple of times, and there were an awful lot of shots of very American looking bombs falling – but given that the RAF bombed mostly at night… By the standards of a lot I’ve seen, it scored quite highly on the right plane front.

Sure, it wasn’t to everyone’s taste, but didn’t we all envy Sargent in the air alongside PA474, and having met the Stevens(spelling?) it was a pleasure to see the two lovebirds again!

Adrian

1batfastard, I know there was film of a Stirling, but you said “Sterling” in your post, so not everybody gets things right all the time. And as for a bigger boat, the BBC would have been criticised for spending money on getting one out there, I’d guess. I’m sure it was the one thing the lady will remember about the day the BBC rowed here out to her father’s last resting place, “why didn’t the BBC lay on a bigger boat?”

wrong film clips – poor editing – etc etc

it was ok for the general public i suppose

not for people who belong to this site i think !

Geoff, I must admit it gets on my goat when the footage is wrong, it’s not just the BBC, have a look on Discovery and the like. 99% of people wouldn’t know the difference, but if you are making a documentary at least get it right, after all a documentary is supposed to factual. I’m sure if they ask on a forum like this they would be overwhelmed with offers to ‘proof read’ the footage for free.

Looking beyond the wrong footage, I’m sure someone with an interest in WW2 but not knowing much about the air war would have found it interesting.

Short Sterling????

Apart from a rowing boat, I’m not sure what else BBC could have laid on for a trip in an inland lake in Northern Germany.

Hi All,
Yes definite film of a Stirling touching down with it’s double tail wheel also possibly the aircraft silhouetted above a burning city (Usually used in bomber documentary’s). They could have tried for a larger boat for all three to actually fit in comfortably.

[QUOTEWhilst I agree that it was a very poor programme, the BBC can and often do make excellent aviation documentaries, the recent one on Eric Brown being a good case in point. A lot depends on who is sub-contracted to produce the programme, I think it’s rare nowadays that the Beeb makes any of its own documentaries.][/QUOTE]
John, Maybe they should get back to making them all themselves and not farm them out so what is the excuse for allowing bad documentary’s surely they must be scrutinised before being accepted for broadcast in which case it’s back to the BBC and the blame is on them. You could argue that with the Bombing campaign being a very touchy subject that not to much thought to accuracy is given and is just given a curt mention. As proof of this I offer the recent unveiling of the Bomber Command Memorial, who may I add was paid for mostly by public donations unlike other government backed WWII monuments that this country’s governments over the years have been proud to associate themselves with unlike Bomber Command. Like one of the aircrew said they carried out Churchill’s orders and he turned hid back on them need I say more ?
Twinotter23,
I in no way consider myself to be an expert, just an enthusiast who knows a little but mainly just somebody who get’s fed up with the continual output of so called documentary’s that have a lack of historical accuracy and visual accuracy when portraying certain aviation subjects. I alighted to this may be cost based, while these documentary’s may bring to attention to a wider audience they should still be correct all the way through it’s treating the audience as thicko’s and insults the memories of those who have had relatives serve in WWII and indeed any survivors from the conflicts represented.

Geoff.

Watching this program, I learned, for the first time, that a Lancaster could manage 300mph straight and level. At least, I think that is what I heard!

Perhaps someone knows differently.

As ‘aviation experts’ we tend to be hyper critical of many aviation offers – as for the general public they very often see things differently!

This week I have discussed the programme with two members of the general public who were both enthused about the programme and it certainly whet their aviation interest – long may such engagement continue! :eagerness:

Short Sterling????

Apart from a rowing boat, I’m not sure what else BBC could have laid on for a trip in an inland lake in Northern Germany.

Hi All,
A very poor show yet again by the penny pinching BBC who would rather keep wasting millions of pounds on unsuccessful Drama/Comedy/and so called stars not to mention all the money wasted in courts defending then loosing and paying out compensations to whom ever!

Whilst I agree that it was a very poor programme, the BBC can and often do make excellent aviation documentaries, the recent one on Eric Brown being a good case in point. A lot depends on who is sub-contracted to produce the programme, I think it’s rare nowadays that the Beeb makes any of its own documentaries.

john