BBC Documentary "Bomber Command"

When I wrote ‘these forums’ I was not referring specifically to this forum.

Heh, heh John, I nominate you as (probably) the Forum’s oldest:

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

(Taken from Wiki)

🙂

What I am sure we would all agree is most important is that the achievements of our Veterans remain uppermost in our minds, and I will say it without shame, in our hearts too. Our Veterans are in their declining years, they are rapidly approaching their well earned and most deserved rest. The opportunity to produce a most fitting and lasting tribute remains, but the window of opportunity is closing. I hope the opportunity is grasped with both hands.

Regards,

kev35

Exactly that! Thankyou:D

Producer will no doubt produce a documentary in the style of their choosing and subject to any slant or bias they apply, either through inclination or inadvertantly. There are a number of people on these fora who have first hand experience of Bomber Command’s struggle through the bitter years and many more who have an extensive knowledge of that campaign. Many have written on, researched and investigated all aspects of that campaign. The knowledge base here is vast when put together. Some can tell you every nuance of the aircrew experience, others can link a number on a corroded piece of metal to an individual airframe. Yet others have managed to identify individual aircraft and aircrew from creased, torn and faded photographs. Collectively, the membership of this particular forum could achieve almost anything if we pooled our resources and worked together.

I hope that Producer gets what they need to produce the documentary they have in mind. I’m sure that in the fullness of time that we will have our collective chance to disect the result intimately either heaping praise or criticism on those who have actually produced something rather than just talk about it. Until then we wait.

What I am sure we would all agree is most important is that the achievements of our Veterans remain uppermost in our minds, and I will say it without shame, in our hearts too. Our Veterans are in their declining years, they are rapidly approaching their well earned and most deserved rest. The opportunity to produce a most fitting and lasting tribute remains, but the window of opportunity is closing. I hope the opportunity is grasped with both hands.

Regards,

kev35

When I wrote ‘these forums’ I was not referring specifically to this forum. Those who know of me on other forums will know to whom I refer. In these other forums and on the subject of Bomber Command, I have previously met with barely concealed anger and outrageous examples of moral equivalence (Hamburg, Berlin = Coventry, London) etc…

Sorry, but I’m not sure you’ve done yourself any favours there…

…when exactly did this forum have to answer for what others write on other forums?! :rolleyes:

All you seem to have achieved here is to alienate many members of an ostensibly pro-Bomber Command forum.

I think the man or woman who started this post must be wondering what sort of asylum they have wandered into! I feel that an apology is in order for some of the posts that are here. I hope that those that can genuinely help have PM’d the “Producer” to that effect. My Father was in Bomber Command from 1941-1945 and I had my first flight in a Halifax in May 1945 with my mother(unfortunately I don’t remember it!) I have had a keen interest in aircraft ever since. I should imagine that over 50% of them I left before they landed though.
As for the light this documentory is painted in I don’t know and don’t much care. The rivet counters on here will find fault anyway whatever is produced.

As for other remarks I was a Soldier during the “troubles”(can’t have a war with your own population) and my regiment has been portrayed in the worst light imaginable,most of us just laugh and get over it. I don’t think it is likely to happen in this case(unless LAC Mandela wanders up to the Station Commander and says “hey dude want to score some smack?) in which case I will publicly eat my words.

Ridiculous post maybe but no worse than some of the rubbish that has been posted so far! So perhaps the “grammer nazi’s” would like to correct my English and spelling as it seems to be an integral part of this thread about Bomber Command.

Remember Men and Women are paying the ultimate price or coming back fror war mutilated who would laugh at the “wizard prang” and “right oh old chap” language but they would not laugh at their sacrifice and courage.

I have been shot at ,petrol bombed, stoned, spat at and worse so If any keyboard warrior wants to take issue with what I have said come on then I will not lose any sleep over it!

Utrinque Paratus

Air Ministry.

When I wrote ‘these forums’ I was not referring specifically to this forum. Those who know of me on other forums will know to whom I refer. In these other forums and on the subject of Bomber Command, I have previously met with barely concealed anger and outrageous examples of moral equivalence (Hamburg, Berlin = Coventry, London) etc. No I won’t withdraw anything. There exists a real hatred, inspired I believe, by left wing indoctrination in State education.

I don’t think that there is anything more that I can usefully add to this discussion. I had hoped to make my stance clear on the subject of this proposed TV program – I don’t think that I’ve succeeded.

Thank you one and all for a lively debate. May I remind everyone that the appeal for funds for the new Bomber Command Memorial in Green Park is, to the best of my belief, ongoing.

John Green

Tangmere 1940

Roughly the wartime generation – those born between say, 1935 and 1945.

John Green

So you say those with the right to feel that special esceptionally close connection to Bomber Command are those who were small children and infants during WWII? Really? Surely if anyone could claim a more special connection to those times it is those who were there as adults then, involved in the fighting – the actual veterans, not a bunch of kids who would have known diddly squat about it at the time? There are wartime veterans, and after that it’s all second-hand knowledge.

If you were born between 1935 and 1945 you really have no more right to claim to have any closer connection than anyone else who is not a veteran, as far as I am concerned. You certainly have a right to feel close to the subject, but so do all the other younger generations. .

It is the younger generations like Andy Saunders, TwinOtter, myself and many others here who have the challenge of continuing to ensure the stories of those who fought are not forgotten. And we younger ones have to pass that mantle on down through future generations. All the way along that chain from one generation to the next there will be special connections made between history stories and the younger people who the stories touch and inspire.

My generation born in the 1970’s have been fortunate enough to have the opportunity to make personal connections with WWII veterans, get to know them and talk to them directly, one to one, about the experience of being in the war (some of them in Bomber Command). The next generation down from mine born in the 1990’s are also lucky to have the tail end of that experience, many of them having great-grandfather still alive, though most don’t realise the significance of what it means yet.

After that, from here on in as the wartime generation – those now in their late 80’s and older – pass away, the only way such special connections can be made with Bomber Command or any other aspect of WWII will be through second-hand experience – filmed interviews, audio recordings, books, articles and other documentation.

It is there that those more creative ways of telling stories such as costume-dramas are so necessary in bringing those times to life, telling a historic story whilst connecting the viewers with the emotion, pathos, characters and historic events that dramatised accounts do so well. Already this is a well established fact – most people my generation wouldn’t know about Bomber Command if they hadn’t seen Dambusters, or the Battle of Britain if it were not for the film of that name. These costume dramas, or more correctly docu-dramas, play a crucial part in getting younger generations interested in the first place in a topic. I don’t just mean WWII here, any historical account is more inspiring to the novice if they see it re-enacted out in a well made, accurate dramatic film.

For all those who watch such a thing, it will inspire some of those younger minds to look into the subject further, explore more, read up and eventually pass on what they have learned to others. In terms of Bomber Command it will make those youngsters of the future realise what the meaning is behind the BBMF Lancaster, and not just think it’s only another aeroplane. It will help them appreciate the personal sacrifices made, and it will inspire them to look for more information.

If such storytelling through docu-drama were not allowed to happen, then people will not have any interest to simply go look at ORB’s, logbooks, interviews, and historical documents from cold, just off the sreet. Why would they? They have not been inspired by the story. It’s just history, ancient and boring old history, and means nothing without that emotional attachment that has triggered the brain. Without having that spark that sets the young people on that path to discover more, the history will all be forgotten in generations to come.

By the way, I was under the mistaken impression John Green that you were an actual veteran of Bomber Command the way you were writing. If you were born between 1935-1945 you cannot be, and I guess you’re just another enthusiast with an opinion like the rest of the younger ones here?

Having recently been privileged to receive a host of personal papers and effects into the Newark Air Museum Archive from a 619 Squadron Wireless Operator who was shot down on 22 June 1944 over northern Belgium; I can assure John Green that ‘other generations’ do feel exceptionally close to this and are moved by the stories relating to Bomber Command.

I wept whilst reading his POW correspondence, which was sent to his family in Dagenham, urging them to ensure that his girlfriend in Lincoln knew that he was safe and that he still loved her.

This was made even more poignant knowing that after he returned to England they were married, yet his life was tragically cut-short by illness in 1950!

Addendum: the POW items mentioned above still have to be incorporated into this family website that also illustrates what ‘other generations’ feel. The nephew of the Wireless Operator was also in tears during my telephone call to him when he realised that people were still interested in his uncle.

‘One does not have to be from that generation to feel exceptionally close to all of this.’

Very well said! A lot of us try and do our bit to ensure the sacrifices made are remembered.

Nicely put. I am content to await the programme, when we can all offer our critique. Until then the speculation, a favourite pastime of the forum, seems rather pointless.

From memory, and unless I have my figures wrong, (John Green will doubtless correct me!) the rough statistics for Bomber Command are these:

RAF Bomber Command recruited 124,000 aircrew throughout the war. Of these: 55,700 were killed, (one of them my uncle) 9,800 were seriously injured, 8,700 were captured. Thus your chance of living was slim, and of surviving intact seriously negative.

It is these men whom Producer wishes to remember and honour in his programme – just as Lion TV did so well in their Battle of Britain documentary. I am not from that “certain generation” (and neither will be the production company) whom John Green suggests exclusively hold such things close to their heart as some kind of monopoly owned by that “certain generation”. One does not have to be from that generation to feel exceptionally close to all of this.

It hurts this classicist as well, but then so does a great deal I hear and read every day!!;);)

Not for a scientist indoctrinated in the correct plural use of this type of information and these data! 😉

My spell-checker gets it wrong as well!! 😀

I think you will find that the correct Latin plural form is rarely used in this context and that in modern usage forums is quite acceptable – indeed both forms are equally acceptable.

… There are to be found on these Forums….

There are to be found on these Fora ….. :rolleyes:

John, you provide a very good example of why I generally stick to the fact based discussions on this board, where I hope my input is precise, valid and appreciated.

I have little time and no enthusiasm for the endless, pointless debating that many threads degenerate into, and this one is becoming a good example of the type.

I shall, however, persevere just a little longer as your last post demands a response.

Forget the t.v. show, I am still interested in your statement that:

There are to be found on these Forums the usual minority group of self loathing, self hating Britishers who never lose an opportunity to denigrate and put down any truly heroic achievements of their fellow countrymen and women – Bomber Command is a prime target for their loathing.

I disagreed with your view and asked you to name someone on this board who fits your assertion in the above quote but you have so far avoided doing so. I find your comment offensive and inappropriate, so once again I ask you to name someone or withdraw your unfounded statement. After all, it’s the British thing to do.

Please?

Air Ministry.

Well that’s great ! I did read the original and fully support AlertKen’s statement. But that wasn’t my original view. Whilst fully supporting the producers intent, I expressed the hope that modern norms and idiom would not be allowed to infiltrate the script as it has on previous period TV drama/documentaries and that the script would remain faithful to the times. That’s all – nothing more.

John Green

Air Ministry.

I thought it was evident from some of the comments.

Err, no it’s not.

You’ve obliged me to read through this rather tedious thread again to see what you’ve spotted and I’ve missed, and I’m still none the wiser as to how and why you’ve reached your conclusions which I quoted in my earlier post.

I think forum member Alertken summed up the attitude of this forum very well in his concise reply to Producer who started this thread. Here it is in case you missed it:

Rory Producer: this forum is antipathetic to those that daubed red paint on the Harris statue, and to philosophers that write about (some) Dead Cities and paint Allied fighting men as collective war criminals.

I haven’t read a single comment on this thread which implies anything different from the above.

That said, and to echo the same calls from other posters, let’s get this topic back on track, eh?

I don’t know why I bothered. Not willing to learn from documentaries, not willing to learn from forums. I give up.

I agree Tangmere–the poor bloke only asked for some help!! He didnt need shooting down in flames !!