BBMF aircraft civil-registered?

I believe all the BBMF aircraft are still classed as military stock and are maintained under the management of the RAF’s Large Aircraft Project Team (wot some of us knew as the Eng Authority(EA))

I also believe that in recent years they have undergone some serious re-assessment of their airworthiness – due (I think) to Haddon-Cave and the fact that these aircraft fly over the public most of their time.

But I might be wrong – of course!

Interesting…I’m writing about the Swedish Air Force Historic Flight (which just flew a Viggen), and all of their aircraft are civil-registered.

The J32 Lansens and the J35J Draken of the Swedish Air Force Historic Flight does not carry a civilian registration. But the SK 35C will probably be civilian registrated (if everythings goes well).

Are the BBMF aircraft civil-registered, or are they considered to still be part of the RAF? If they are civil, what’s the [legal] reason?

Interesting…I’m writing about the Swedish Air Force Historic Flight (which just flew a Viggen), and all of their aircraft are civil-registered.

The BBMF is a Flight that was setup and operated by the Royal Air Force to commemorate its past, namely its most publically well known eras of the Battle of Britain and the Bomber Command raids.
Other Flights have existed, namely the ‘Vintage Pair’ of the Central Flying School, to remember the RAFs jet flying training past.
The Flights and their aircraft are wholly RAF operated and thus fly with their military serials, and as such have no obligation to fly under CAA permits, regulations, or registration marks.

However maintenance has gradually gone over from in house RAF to contracted out to civilian firms. Lancaster PA474 used to be serviced at RAF St Athan, but has in recent times been serviced by civilian outfits at Coventry, and I understand from this forum is due to go to Duxford for some work.
As others have mentioned, the recently formed MAA issue the guidelines for maintenance and operation.

I must admit I have great admiration for the Swedish Historic Flight, because of the breadth of types and era represented. They operate types both from their own industry and abroad.
I don’t enough about their set up, but could it be that some of the aircraft that partcipate in the SAFHF are owned or operated by individuals, rather than by the Air force?

Surely its already the only purpose built bomber the RAF fund? the Tornado started out as the MRCA (Multi Role Combat Aircraft), the Typhoon started as a fighter, what else have we got that can drop bombs?….nothing

If you look at the decline in the size of the modern RAF -I think its unlikely that the Lancaster would be funded by the RAF in 2031.

If you look at the decline in the size of the modern RAF -I think its likely that the Lancaster will be the only bomber funded by the RAF in 2031.

If you look at the decline in the size of the modern RAF -I think its unlikely that the Lancaster would be funded by the RAF in 2031.

& the out of service date for that bomber is 2031, so i read somewhere…

I read that in the BBMF book (I think it was last years?) and I asked the guy and he said everything in military terms has to have a finite life but the Canberra had an out of service date in the 70’s of 1986 but some had just retired a year or two before.

I think if you put the money into something and it is well looked after (as all the flights aircraft are) it could go on forever. Plus the sight of a Lancaster bomber puts a lump in the throat of anyone who see’s her.

Curlyboy

I was told at Duxford a few years ago by a BBMF crew man that the RAF have the pride of claiming they are the only air force in the world operating a world war 2 vintage four engine heavy bomber and period fighters to boot.

curlyboy

& the out of service date for that bomber is 2031, so i read somewhere…

A quick search of the CAA database G-INFO reveals that

Hurricane PZ865 (ex-G-AMAU) had its civilian registration cancelled 19/12/1972, as “to military markings” see http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/HistoricalMaterial/G-AMAU-2.pdf

Spitfire P7350 (ex-G-AWIJ) had its civilian registration cancelled 29/2/1984 as “to Ministry of Defence” see http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/HistoricalMaterial/G-AWIJ.pdf

In other words, as far as the CAA are concerned, these aircraft not currently civil registered, and have not been since 1972 and 1984 respectively

AB910, formerly G-AISU was cancelled even further back. G-INFO has its cancellation as 22/8/55 “converted military markings”.

I was told at Duxford a few years ago by a BBMF crew man that the RAF have the pride of claiming they are the only air force in the world operating a world war 2 vintage four engine heavy bomber and period fighters to boot.

curlyboy

BBMF aircraft civil-registered?

Getting my spotting anorak of course some did have civil regs from their previous owners. Hurricane PZ865 was G-AMAU with Hawkers ,and Spitfire P7350 was G-AWIJ (presumably from BofB film?), not sure if there were any more?
Plus of course the RNHF Swordfish LS326 was G-AJVH.

A quick search of the CAA database G-INFO reveals that

Hurricane PZ865 (ex-G-AMAU) had its civilian registration cancelled 19/12/1972, as “to military markings” see http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/HistoricalMaterial/G-AMAU-2.pdf

Spitfire P7350 (ex-G-AWIJ) had its civilian registration cancelled 29/2/1984 as “to Ministry of Defence” see http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/HistoricalMaterial/G-AWIJ.pdf

In other words, as far as the CAA are concerned, these aircraft not currently civil registered, and have not been since 1972 and 1984 respectively

“Also it is no longer fully funded under the MOD from RN funds and is operated under the Trust, it may well have a Commanding Officer etc but is no longer a fully fledged Naval asset such as the BBMF is as the trust runs it.”

Correct. It is not fully funded by the MoD or the RN.

Incorrect. It is not, repeat not, operated under the Trust. The Trust has no say in how the squadron is run.

Incorrect. It is a fully fledged Naval asset, just as the BBMF is, and the Trust does not run it!

Again, I think the FNHT personnel, would disagree that it is not a fully fledged Naval asset, regardless of whether they are RN or civilian.

Speak up FNHT people.

“Rob, The Royal Navy no longer operated their fleet, the RNHF is in a way no longer part of the Navy, so some of their aircraft are I believe Some if not all are civilian registered”

1. The Royal Navy does operate its fleet.

Although initially manned by Service Personnel, successive rounds of Defence cuts led to the Flight being civilianised in the early 1990s and the Swordfish Heritage Trust was formed to raise funds to fill the shortfall in MoD funding. The Flight remains an Royal Naval Squadron, initially run by a civilian General Manager, but since 2009 by a serving officer.* The Flight pilots are all serving or Reserve Officers who display the aircraft as volunteers during their spare time.

2. The RNHF is part of the Navy. Always has been. Always will be. I think the members of the RNHF would strongly disagree with you that it “is in a way no longer part of the Navy”.

All of the engineering is now civilian

3. None, not “some if not all” of their aircraft are civil registered.
4. The Sea Fury T20 does not belong to the RN or the RNHF. Never has.

The Trust provides financial support to the Royal Navy Historic Flight, keeping the iconic Naval Swordfish, Sea Fury and Seahawk flying at air shows around the country; bringing pleasure to millions and providing an exciting, evocative and powerful link between the Royal Navy’s historic past and today’s modern audiences.

G-RNHF

Apologies, Sea Fury T20, VX281, G-RNHF

RNHF

The RNHF is a fully fledged military asset exactly as the BBMF is.

It is not run by any Trust.

“Rob, The Royal Navy no longer operated their fleet, the RNHF is in a way no longer part of the Navy, so some of their aircraft are I believe Some if not all are civilian registered”

1. The Royal Navy does operate its fleet.
2. The RNHF is part of the Navy. Always has been. Always will be. I think the members of the RNHF would strongly disagree with you that it “is in a way no longer part of the Navy”.
3. None, not “some if not all” of their aircraft are civil registered.
4. The Sea Fury T20 does not belong to the RN or the RNHF. Never has.

What I said was some come under the CAA auspices which the Fury does. Also it is no longer fully funded under the MOD from RN funds and is operated under the Trust, it may well have a Commanding Officer etc but is no longer a fully fledged Naval asset such as the BBMF is as the trust runs it.

Actually the Sea Fury t.20 is G-RNHF not G-FNHT.

RHNF

Once again, people speak much of which they know not (TonyT). And so authortitatively too!

The RHNF is in fact a current RN Squadron, and always has been. It belongs to the Queen and operates under the CO of Yeovilton, just as any other squadron there does. It is run by a current RN officer. Its commanding officer is LtCdr Ian Sloan.

All of its aircraft, three Swordfish, one Sea Fury, and on Seahawk are on the military register and are not in any way regulated by the CAA. They are flown by active duty RN pilots.

The Fly Navy Heritage Trust under its operating arm, Naval Aviation Limited, operates Sea Fury T20, G-FNHT.

The RN archives, etc. are also civilianised. I wrote to them at Yeovilton some time ago asking for information and was told that there would be a charge incurred for searching their records. The RAF museum of course provide their excellent services free. Progress and the March of Capitalism I suppose.