BBMF other types ?

RE: BBMF other types – early RAF Middle and Far East ops?

The saxophone exhaust didn’t give the Merlin anymore power, but because of the shape they gave a ‘jet like’ effect with the exhaust gasses. It probably made little difference on an aircraft as heavy as a Lancaster, but on the Mosquito, because it’s a lot lighter, it did give another 10-15 mph top speed.
Neilly

RE: BBMF other types – early RAF Middle and Far East ops?

Slightly late thought; but (for an RAF Memorial Squadron rather than an expanded BBMF; and yes, I know this is even less likely to ever happen than some of the other proposals):

How about an example of one or two of the two-seat light bombers — Wapitis, Harts / Audaxes or their variants — that the RAF used between the two World Wars, on what were then called “policing” duties, in Afghanistan, India, and Iraq, among other locations?

Less glamorous than some of the other types, and perhaps not be as easily recognisable by Joe Public; but of some historic significance for the RAF, perhaps? Isn’t it true that the RAF owed its survival as a separate arm, during the period between the two WWs, at least partly to being able to represent that a couple of squadrons of such aircraft could “police” remote territories more effectively and at lower cost than troops on the ground?

(And given pivotal 1990s and 2001 events involving air power in the Middle East, can’t some aviation historian dredge up some 1920s Whitehall memo on the use of air power in such circumstances that seems eerily prescient today … ?)

Cheers,

Snoopy

RE: BBMF other types ?

Wartime photos of Lancs with their engine cowlings off look no different to me than ones of ‘474 in a similar state today-I thought she was simply lacking the curved outer shroud, that was all. There’s no way either that such a small difference is going to make any power difference to a Merlin-like Ant says, they were happy to run loaded Lancs with them in the war.

RE: BBMF other types ?

LAST EDITED ON 12-11-01 AT 08:59 PM (GMT)[p]With regard to the flame damping on the exhausts. The exhaust system is different. The exhaust stubs are not there,as such, instead there are whats called saxophone exhausts, with a shroud over them. So I would think this would cost lots of cash to change. I also think this system gave more power, not less. It did on the Merlins of the early Mosquitoes, but didn’t make much difference on the later Mks. of Mossie.

Neilly

RE: BBMF other types ?

I’d always thought that disc under the fuselage was something to do with her days as a Search & Rescue aircraft or a leftover from her testbed days.
As for the exhaust shrouds,I’m not at all sure that they did cause a loss of power.They perhaps imposed a slight aerodynamic penalty.If a Lanc with exhaust shrouds can get airborne with a belly full of bombs in wartime,then why shouldn’t a lighterweight warbird do the same today?

RE: BBMF other types ?

The BBMF Lancaster has been parked next to the Duxford example.
I remember it happened at a Flying Legends in the 1990’s.
Regards the Canadian Lancaster I don’t blame thier reluctance to bring her across.She is their only flying Lancaster in the same way as PA474 is ours.
Regards the rudder control on landing I believe that PA474
is usually landed on her mainwheels and left to settle on the tail to give her more rudder authority.

RE: BBMF other types ?

Ant, you are of course right about the larger rudders being better-and as every single landing ‘474 makes is a risky thing, greater control can only be for the better.

Didn’t all Lancs built after a certain point with no H2S fitted have that ‘dustbin’ lid under the fuselage?

RE: BBMF other types ?

that would unfortunately mean a loss in power, if I remember rightly- not sure the powers that be would be happy about that one!!!

coanda

RE: BBMF other types ?

As I’ve heard it,there are plans afoot to fit an H2S blister in the near future.I think it would be good to see this fitted,rather than just that peculiar dustbin lid-type disc shape under the fuselage.
As for the rudders,it might be nice to have rounded examples fitted,but then again the square bottomed examples do give better authority and lighter handling.
What I’d also like to see is the fitting of exhaust flame dampers onto the cowlings to fully recreate the period effect.It doesn’t seem right to see the exhaust stubbs.

RE: BBMF other types ?

As far as I know, ‘474 has never been parked with the Duxford Lanc, or any other of course! It’s a hell of a shame they can’t get her in to East Kirky somehow for a photoshoot of them both running together, but no chance of that. The only thing that may happen way, way off in the future is that ‘611 flies out of East Kirkby-but I think she’s superb just as she is.

I can’t see the Canadians ever brnging theirs over, the way they dither about with it. Great as another flying Lanc is, I can’t help but think that theirs is a poor relation to ours-it has never looked ‘right’ in my opinion. (Paint colours/marking, for one)

Even if NX611 is restored, she can get out of East Kirkby, but it’s not a place you can operate from, so that would mean they would effectively lose their star attraction! And it might possibly have to go by road to somewhere else to be restored anyway.

Duxford’s doesn’t come out to play, NX611 is ‘stuck’ in East Kirkby, S-Sugar is even more trapped indoors at Hendon-makes you realise just how special ‘474 is, doesn’t it?

RE: BBMF other types ?

i raised a point sometime ago ( maybe here or maybe on the old Warbirds Worldwide forum ) about parking the Lanc with Duxford’s example. Has it ever happened and are there any photos on the web?

if whitehall ever decided to ground the Lanc what are the chances of it been sold on to a group like the Fighter Collection (just for example). Or would it simply be grounded?

thoughts?

RE: BBMF other types ?

Yes, I know the turrets did once operate correctly, but that was a LONG time ago! The plan I read of was to ‘get the turrets operating on bottled air’. I guess nothing will come of it though. I must confess to giving up my membership of the Linc Lanc Association some years ago now, so I have no idea what is going on-if anything-about the H2S blister. I’d have thought they could fund it though, as they funded the mid-upper deflection ring.

I know it’s a picky detail, but I’d love to see ‘474 fitted with the more usual type of tail fins-even though her own are completely original to when she was built, they don’t look like the vast majority of Lancs did.

Another thing I’d love to see, is the Lanc painted up one time as Hendon’s ‘S-Sugar’. Okay so Sugar still exists, but that would be a WONDERFUL sight in the air.

RE: BBMF other types ?

Good comments here!

Years ago PA474 HAD operating turrets. This was stopped due to the strain on the hydraulic system through wear and tear?? CWH was hoping to have operable turrets but the powers that be stated they were not to be moved in flight as they change the airflow over the airplane HAH!! Nice idea about the fiberglass bombload that would be something to see. What ever happened to her getting a H2s radome installed???

Last but not least. Thank goodness for the toned down paint scheme the high gloss finish was TERRIBLE!!!!!

RE: BBMF other types ?

Of course, the BBMF name was adopted AFTER the arrival of PA474-prior to that it was just the Battle Of Britain Flight.

There’s no way any German aircraft should fly with the flight, and even operating a Dakota is a bit suspect in many ways, apart from Lanc crew currency flights-and that’s more paying lip-service to the rules than anything else.

What should happen with the flight is the increased moves towards authenticity-years ago the Lanc was supposed to get a fibreglass bombload and properly operating turrets, but it never happened-big shame. At least now they are toning down the gloss paint-‘474 was starting to look like she was in a Dulux advert or something!

We should be very, very thankful that we still HAVE the BBMF-though I bet you that the penny-pinchers will get rid of it in the end. First of all they’ll have less fighters, then gradually it will all be grounded. Whitehall will get ‘474 before old age does, you just wait and see.