becoming commercial pilot

It’s principally a problem between the US and other countries. The JAA has massively assisted contract work within member states and most other countries just require a JAR licensed pilot to sit a air law exam and perhaps a brief flight test. Contract work is usually done by a mixture of word of mouth (for regular contract pilots) or through the agencies that advertise in the back of Flight International. Most contract pilots are rated on at least a couple of different types and cycle between these on different contracts to keep plenty of cards up there sleeves. For example they may do 6 months on a 737 followed by 12 months on an A320 before another contract on the 737. Generally so long as you have flown a type in the last 5 years it’s not too difficult to get back working on it.

Originally posted by Bhoy
I wouldn’t think so, as the Air Atlanta a/c are still TF- registered, so the crew would only have to hold Icelandic licences, I think?

I suspect it’s the same with UK registered a/c that go on tours, as long as they retain a G- registration.

correct Bhoy. If fact some of the Virgin Classic pilots, and some of the ABD pilots hold dual Uka nd Icelandic licenses to fly the 2 leased B742s TF-ATN/W which usually operate out of Manchester. Some of the ABD a/c are now being transferred to the UK register trading as Air Atlanta Europe, an example of which is G-BNYS which flies for Excel AW in the summer, but has for the last 2 summers operated as a TF registered a/c

I wouldn’t think so, as the Air Atlanta a/c are still TF- registered, so the crew would only have to hold Icelandic licences, I think?

I suspect it’s the same with UK registered a/c that go on tours, as long as they retain a G- registration.

Well if I had to sit my driving test again I think I wold fail!

Wys – how does it work with contract pilots? You know, the chaps who do 6 months in Canada, 6 months in Senegal and 8 months in Thailand. An old girlfriend’s old man used to do that (well, US-Nigeria-UK) and I’m just curious.

I imagine aircraft lessors have a problem (eg. Air Atlanta) as they often lease out both the aircraft and the pilots.

Would you need to get a new type rating every time you went to a new country?

Now that is dumb !

Mongu, for several years now my company (and indeed most of the UK charters) have been doing the slighly questionable practice of operating our pilots on US registered aircraft in the winter and American pilots in Beitish registered aircraft in the summer, commonly known as ‘flagging out’. For this to happen our type experienced crews have to do a complete (no credits given) type rating again from scratch, as do the Americans over here! Each pilot only has to do it once for the other system but it’s a rediculous situation! What is particularly ironic is that frequently it is one of your own aircraft that has been transferred from the G register to the N register for 6 months but all of a sudden you’re not qualified to fly it without doing the rating all over again! Bizarrely, last time we had the Americans (Ryan International) over only 5 of the 12 experienced 757 pilots passed the type rating!!!

Whats the deal with type ratings – is a rating global, or do you have to get separate FAA and JAA ones?

Silly question I know, as the aircraft will be the same wherever you fly it, but then again every country requires their own version of the ATPL.

sorry for that.

Gaurav, what kind of sponsorship is that?

Lufthansa still does ab-initio training and they organize a loan for you, while paying for half of the education (roughly 80 000,- €, so they pay about 40 000) but you have to pass difficult tests at first which many do not make and of course you have to speak german fluently, so it would probably be a lot of hard work for most of you. But despite that it is a perfect offer. never seen anything better than their course.

brgs,
Doc_D@ddel

Gaurav, what kind of sponsorship is that?

Lufthansa still does ab-initio training and they organize a loan for you, while paying for half of the education (roughly 80 000,- €, so they pay about 40 000) but you have to pass difficult tests at first which many do not make and of course you have to speak german fluently, so it would probably be a lot of hard work for most of you. But despite that it is a perfect offer. never seen anything better than their course.

brgs,
Doc_D@ddel

Hi
I got a ponsership, but not through BA and its a loan from Manchester. I had to work my ass of to get even this, its so hard

The worst thing is that you are paying £20,000 ($24,000) to work for a budget airline which has a huge staff turnover rate like Ryanair.

The likes of BA and Virgin still pay for type ratings, I’m not sure about the charters though?

Pay For Training (PFT) was very common here in the states until the hiring boom started in 1999. It ususally didn’t mean paying for a type rating but only for your First Officer training. Still the deal cost the average pilot $7,000-10,000 US. The only airline in the US I know of that requires the pilot to have a type rating prior to being hired is Southwest Airlines. They operate only a fleet of 737’s so that one type will last your career there. There are some deals for a 737 type but they’ll still run you roughly $10,000+ US.

Now that the industry is in the dump PFT is starting to make an appearance once again. So far it’s only found in the lower rank jobs (entry level corporate or charter positions). It’s a hugh area of discontent among pilots and has caused quite a few heated discussions. I luckily found myself getting hired right after the PFT stopped.

I can’t think of any other profession that has a $100,000 education requirement that will still find employers requiring to you cough up another $20,000 for the honor of working for them. As you said wysiwyg, there are too many pilots trying for too few positions. It only takes one who is willing to spend the money that screws it up for everyone else.

Yes, if you are put through the sponsorship and you pass the ATPL training and the type training you WILL become a 757 line pilot with TCX. If you are capable of meeting the criteria for the selection process I would advise you to go for it. As Martin says, sponsorships are probably the very best way to leapfrog the system in this day and age.

Regards
wys

Wys- Do you know anything about the chances that you would get a job with Thomas Cook after doing the sponsorship training that I linked to as it seems to be them and Easyjet that are supporting the scheme.

Yes, WD, easyJet are currently making all new joiners stump up £26,000 to cover the cost of training them on type!!!!! This is the delightful position we find ourselves in with so many people looking for work and the cut throat low costs being the only ones able to offer it!

By the way, beautifully summed up Martin!

Site all about Airline Sponsorship.
http://ctc-mcalpine.com/index.htm

Originally posted by martin_EGTK
These days a lot of airlines expect you to pay for your own type rating as well which costs roughly £18,000, but don’t pay for one of these until you actually are offered a job.

Are you kidding? Wow, that sucks (pardon my French).

Sponsorship just isn’t happening at the moment, my sources at BA tell me they plan to restart by the end of 2004, but this isn’t looking very likely at the moment. In fact many experts I’ve spoken to don’t expect airline recruitment to ever return to it’s pre 9/11 state.

The easyJet sponsorship deal looks good, but you’ll actually end up paying a lot more than normal training as they need you to pay bonds, plus the chance of acceptance is minimal and like any training course you’re not garenteed a job. Your wage will also be very small after completing the easyJet course if you do actually get a placement with the airline.

I’m going to be training at OAT all being well, I’m having my full interviews next month. OAT is a very good school and has connections with bmi and several other major airlines, however it is VERY expensive. My training there will cost £62,000, but as I live in Oxford I don’t have to pay living costs. The total cost of the course at OAT is £72,000 which includes three and a half months in Texas for your VFR training. However, Oxford provides some of the best training in the world.

Other good schools are Cabair in Cranfield near Cambridge, the total for the training there is £47,750, or if you pay up front it’s £45,000. Cabair is a good school as well, but doesn’t provide some of the extras that you may find at other schools. However I would recommend it, I took a long look round and I liked it a lot, it’s currently my second choice.

BAe Systems moved their training school from Glasgow Prestwick to Jerez in Spain a few years ago and provide very good training for a similiar price to Cabair.

There are also a lot of great schools out in the states where you can train from £20,000. However you will need to convert your license from a FAA license to a JAA one.

Minidoh made a small mistake, you need to get at least a CPL to start teaching. It is a good way to build up your hours. But I’d recommend you get your full ATPL so that you don’t need to go back to training school when you want to join an airline.

These days a lot of airlines expect you to pay for your own type rating as well which costs roughly £18,000, but don’t pay for one of these until you actually are offered a job.

As wysiwyg says, the job market is extremely competitive and not in a great state at all at the moment. Ryanair and easyJet will be employing around 3000 new first officers in the next few years, but these jobs will be hard to come by. Getting a job is extremely tough, so before you fork out what could be up to £100,000 make sure you are 100% commited and be prepared to have to wait a long time before getting a job.

In terms of loans, it is very hard to secure a full loan, some schools can provide you with a loan for up to 50% but not much more. The APR on a loan for flight training is generally much lower than average, but you must start paying the loan back six months after you have finished training. HSBC are the only UK bank that even consider giving loans to trainee pilots.

But if you really want it and you work hard enough at it you’ll get there. Good luck mate and I hope to see you in the skies some day soon 🙂 I hope this helps!

By the way, i know that if you decide to take the £52,000 loan and work for the airlines to pay it off, the average APR is 5.25%