Beech Model 17 RAF serial no?

Good spot that Paul… thanks for passing on Terry’s revised response… 🙂

Cheers
Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

I queried Terry’s initial ID on AB-IX

“Terry

I am not so sure.. A picture on the LEMB site shows F-APFB dis-assembled in a Hanger in Civilian Scheme and she does not have the bullet antenna..

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=1159“

He re-appraied his initial identification as follows:

Paul

Thanks – have looked at the site, and the various theories that have now
appeared on the web. So I will run through possible candidates and try to
“show working” as they used to put on the exam papers!

Primary reference sources have been :-
Staggerwing by Robert T.Smith (1967)
The Beech 17 – Archive Special #4 by Peter Berry (1992)
Aircraft of the Spanish Civil War by Gerald Howson (1990)
+ various editions of Archive.

I have no doubt that the photograph is genuine, and the vendor has other
photos for sale which appear to have taken at the same airfield, including a
Breguet 693 and Bloch MB.210. The marks applied are crude and appear to be
French roundels and fin flash. There also appears to be a captured Blenheim
with Luftwaffe marks behind the Beech 17.

Firstly the “bullet antennae” is not necessarily relevant. This is a type of
ADF aerial which can be removed/installed fairly easily, but will comment on
individual aircraft below. There is a surprising amount of conflicting
information published about the potential aircraft involved.

There are three Beech 17 which could/may/might have fallen into the hands of
the Luftwaffe:

c/n.50 G-ADLE; c/n.66 F-APFD, and c/n.297 39-141.

G-ADLE – crashed in Denmark 20 Jan 39, but was repaired and based at Haaren,
Brussels. One source states that this was taken over by the Luftwaffe in
France in June 1940. When delivered to the UK this aircraft had a loop
antennae. One theory being put forward is this may have been impressed as
P1766, but there is no mention of this in Impressment Logs, and in fact the
P serial batches were allocated in 1938 and not used for any other impressed
aircraft. Another theory is that the marks in the photo are Belgian, but
they did not use such a serial presentation. Yet another theory is that the
aircraft was painted as such for clandestine operations.

F-APFD – LEMB have a report that this aircraft was operated by Air Pyrénées,
and was seized after Nov 1942 and went to the Luftwaffe Collection
(Mustersammlung der Luftwaffe) at Nanterre. Howson states that this aircraft
was captured by the Germans in 1940. Beech 17 Archive Special states was
displayed at Nanterre without propeller or wings.

39-141 – Confiscated in Italy on 7 May 1942 and used by Regia Aeronautica,
last known to be in Italy in Sep 1943.

Have looked at the enhanced scan again, and I now admit to an element of
doubt regarding the first letter being a “B” – it may be a fuselage rib
projecting into the fabric. So this takes us back to square one! Time for
more theories:

I think it unlikely to be 39-141 as I think photo taken before 1943.
F-APFD – reports indicate was dismantled, so c/n.66 = “P1766” is equally
unlikely (an unfortunate co-incidence).

That leaves G-ADLE – did it escape from Belgium to France prior to capture?
Crude markings may have been applied for “escape flight”, or may have been
applied for propaganda reasons?

Terry

It’s a pleasure.

Thanks for forwarding us the answer DD… 🙂

Cheers
Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

The question was posed and answered on the ABix Forum (Air BrItain Information EXchange) yesterday.

Thanks to Terry Murphy for posting this:

“Enhancement of the photo shows the marks to be B1766. This would be for a French serial for
c/n.66.

This aircraft was previously NC15811 and F-APFD, of Spanish Civil War fame.
It was used by the Basque President to escape to France, where it remained
until captured by the Germans in 1940.

It was subsequently wrecked during a test flight.”

So the roundels are French after all, and of course ‘B17’ stands for Beech 17…. Simple really when it’s explained like that!

DD

—– Original Message —–

I’m still grasping….

Looking at the “similar” images on the e-bay page, there is a “WW II Photo German captured French Bomber plane”

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390043330138&ih=026&category=104000&_trksid=p4340.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26its%3DI%252BC%252BS%252BIA%26itu%3DUCI%252BUS-BWR%26otn%3D2%26ps%3D57

Could be – could be (grasp grasp) the same two servicemen, one shirtless etc? If, HUGE if, they are the same it narrows it to France I guess?

[QUOTE=Finny;1392479]

Sorry to disappoint you, but there is nothing Finnish in the photo. BC-1 was never camouflaged, neither was BC-2, which arrived in the fifties anyway, neither the hangars nor the uniforms resemble anything in Finland, not to mention the serials and roundels. BC-1 was previously ZS-BBC, and it was flown to Finland in its basic civilian colour scheme, which it retained throughout its life, it just wore registration OH-BCI for the ferry flight. After the war it became OH-PKA, being written off in December 1947.

I’ll just let go of those straws then !!;) – keep the thread active though, somebody on here will know I’m sure.

[QUOTE=BSG-75;1392471]

QUOTE]

I have pictures here of FT-481 (RN Traveller MkII) and DS 18?? (RAF Mk I) neither has the RDF fairing. If that is a Bleheim to the right, could that be a Russian twin in the hanger, SB2 (?) and tie in with the Finnish line mentioned on the other forum? Doesn’t answer the roundel question though:(

Sorry to disappoint you, but there is nothing Finnish in the photo. BC-1 was never camouflaged, neither was BC-2, which arrived in the fifties anyway, neither the hangars nor the uniforms resemble anything in Finland, not to mention the serials and roundels. BC-1 was previously ZS-BBC, and it was flown to Finland in its basic civilian colour scheme, which it retained throughout its life, it just wore registration OH-BCI for the ferry flight. After the war it became OH-PKA, being written off in December 1947.

[QUOTE=avion ancien;1391760]

thirty C-43s were supplied under Lend-Lease to the RAF with the serials FL653-670 and FZ428-439; that seventy five GB-2s were supplied with the serials FT461-535; and that two were impressed with serials DS180 and DR628. None of those would, I suggest, be capable of being easily misread as P1766.
QUOTE]

I have pictures here of FT-481 (RN Traveller MkII) and DS 18?? (RAF Mk I) neither has the RDF fairing. If that is a Bleheim to the right, could that be a Russian twin in the hanger, SB2 (?) and tie in with the Finnish line mentioned on the other forum? Doesn’t answer the roundel question though:(

Isnt the aircraft in the picture a Beech B-17 Staggerwing, which would make it rather rarer than the D-17.
The obvious differences being the ailerons on the lower wings, moved to upper on the D-17 and aerodynamic balances on the elevator rather than weights on the D-17. Other changes were the windscreen and the fuselage was shorter on the B.

Richard

Dont look like British markings to me either. Belgian?

Best wishes
Steve P

The front portion of the fin stripe and one of the outer rings of the fuselage roundel have clearly been either overpainted or retouched on the photo. Is the section of aircraft in Luftwaffe markings behind the Staggerwing a French or German type? Does it have a twin tail? What is the twin engined aircraft lurking in the hangar?

The one thing I know for certain is the fact that I haven’t a clue.

regards,

kev35

French not British markings

This seems to be definitely in French national markings as British tail markings read Red White Blue front to back the French are a reverse of this combination. The American designation for the Staggerwing was UC-43, I takre it that model 17 is it’s civilian designation?

Thanks for your thoughts Dave… we have a thread on this Staggerwing over on the LEMB here which has subsequently had some excellent additional info added… but we are still no closer to positively identifying this example. Is it just me or do the markings look clandestine?

Cheers
Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

Not aware of any French military staggerwings – only other ones in Europe were Dutch (purchased during the war for Prince Bernhard) and Finland.

Nor can I find any trace of an RAF one being captured (Other than the two impressements, one of which was the ex-US Air Attache’s aircraft, the RAF aircraft were delivered in mid-war)

Very interesting

Hi
Being inquisitive..
What is the a/c with the turret ? ( behind the beech ), which has luftwaffe markings.
Looks a bit like a blenheim but not quite ?
Any ideas ?
cheers
Jerry

🙂 Thanks for the feedback guys… I’ve been through the various permutations of what the serial *could* have been if it wasn’t P1766… but nothings comes even remotely close to providing the answer. Saying that, as my signature below may reinforce, this subject is way outside of my area of alleged expertise, hence my positing the enquiry here (the next best place). Thanks for the forum pointer avion ancien, when I get 5min later tonight, I take a look and see whether they can help. In the meantime, any further thoughts, comments or clarification would be great…

cheers
Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

A further thought, Peter – why not try posting the same enquiry here – http://www.aerostories.org/~aeroforums/forumhist/index.php – in case the aircraft is indeed French.

P1765 appears to have been a Rapide!

I don’t know if it helps but the Air Britain Impressments Log states that the Beech 17 served in the RAF, FAA and USAAF under designations C-43, GB-1 and GB-2; that thirty C-43s were supplied under Lend-Lease to the RAF with the serials FL653-670 and FZ428-439; that seventy five GB-2s were supplied with the serials FT461-535; and that two were impressed with serials DS180 and DR628. None of those would, I suggest, be capable of being easily misread as P1766.

If the aircraft in the photo is British and is marked P1766, then the serial would have been issued pre-war, probably in 1938. So just maybe the caption on the photo is corrrect. Maybe it was French and maybe the serial number is P-1766. I’m afraid I don’t have access to details of French military serials from this period. But I suspect that someone out there does!

looks like P1765