Best American Fighter?

RE: Best American Fighter?

Fred

Scooter,
(See also phred’s comment)
I would pick the P-38 anytime, but then, I like this airplane very much for its design (although Anthony Fokker had it first) and I admire kelly Jhonson as a designer. On the other hand, it could everything you wanted from a militairy plane: long range, high speed, high climb speed, bomb, fight, etc. First over Berlin, it’s only flaw really was the high cost of maintenance. However, it did extremely well in N Africa and the Pacific. It also proved to be a strong force against the Luftwaffe when they still had cocksure experienced pilots in an overwhelming number. The Jug and the Mustang did not really appear in force untill well in 1944, so the Lightning had proven its worth by then.

Happy landings!
Fred

RE: Best American Fighter?

Thanks Rob,
the bit about the template was read in an early issue of Warbirds Worldwide. I think that the article was about Blain Fowlers F4U-5, Alberta Blue. (Maybe I´m wrong since it´s from memory!?)

Christer

RE: Best American Fighter?

Yes, once relieved of the plane’s weight the oleos returned to normal position. I believe they were valved in a way that, once the plane alighted, would cause them not to exhibit any rebound characteristics.

In general, if you look at a Corsairs oleos they will show about an inch or so of oleo where similar aircraft show much more. I suppose that small amount is enough to allow for normal ground operating conditions without too rough of a ride. My guess would be that the template was used because the margin for error with the oleos was so strict.

At Oshkosh this year I had a man point to the Corsairs oleos and question me about this very subject. The aircraft in question actually had no oleo showing on its port side! I convinced him that this was normal, although I pretty sure the plane we were looking at could have used a little TLC.

RE: Best American Fighter?

Rob,
interesting info on the “deflating” oleos.
I read somewhere that preflight inspection included checking the oleo extension by means of a template. I think it was a dash five.
I assume that the oleos expand again on take off when relieved of the weight.
Can You confirm this and also that the use of a template was to secure enough oleo travel for a normal take off.

Regards,
Christer

RE: Best American Fighter?

I believe the RNFAA definately played a bigger part in the acceptance of the F4U than many are aware of.

Once the main oleos were redesigned to ‘deflate’ rather than rebound on landing, the Corsair became alot more controlable on landing (note any photo of a Corsair at rest and you’ll see it’s oleo’s are almost if not completely compressed). The tailwheel strut was also raised 12″, the canopy was “blown”, and the pilot’s seat raised, all of which substantially aided forward visibility over that ‘locomotive’ nose.

Most dont know that the Fleet Air Arm was responsible for the creation of the ‘curved approach’ technique whereas the pilot could keep the deck of the carrier in full view out of the left hand side of the cockpit until the moment just before touchdown. All of these factors were essential to the success of the F4U as a dedicated carrier-borne fighter.

RE: Best American Fighter?

Just been reading up on the Corsair, a couple of interesting facts. During flight tests the US Navy rejected the Corsair, because it had poor landing characteristics, it had poor vision & a nasty bouncing problem on touch down. However, the Royal Navy were despartate for a modern front line fighter so accepted the Corsair. Because the Royal Navy aircraft carriers were smaller the Corsair had to have the wings shorten, the main oleos were redesigned, curing the bad landing performance. The Fleet Air Arm were operating the Corsair (with great success) 8 months before the US Navy started carrier operations with the F-4. The rest, as they say, is history!
Now I’ve done a bit of research, on this aeroplane, I’ve changed my mind. It certainly was a superb fighter.

Neilly

RE: Best American Fighter?

First off, I’m biased 😉

I’d have to choose the F4U-4 Corsair. The P-38 is tooo complex with multiple engines and the ecentric fuselage design. The P-51 is beautiful, but the inline engine makes it easy prey to any kind of offensive fire.

Nope, the Corsair would have to be my all around pick for general, worldwide warfare for a few reasons.

1. Payload – The Corsair lugs the heavy ordinance with the best of them. It’s one hell of a dedicated fighter/bomber.

2. Carrier Capability – The Corsair fights from land AND sea. A fighter that can truly be deployed anywhere. None of the contenders even place in this category.

3. Performance – Speed, zoom, turning capability, climb, etc. The Corsair harbors no weaknesses in all these respects.

4. Endurance – Well over 1000 miles.

I’d love to do some private testing to confirm exact performance figures. Anyone interesting in financing such a venture? 😉

Rob

RE: Best American Fighter?

Neilly,
when I decided to use my first name as user name I didn´t think it was that common. Obviously I was wrong since there are, at least, two other gents by the same name. Both of them are proficient authors and contributors to web sites.
I, however, am not one of them, I´m just another besserwisser!

My best to You as well,
Christer

RE: Best American Fighter?

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 07-12-01 AT 11:16 AM (GMT)]Christer,
I like a good discussion, not only to learn more about aviation etc., but it’s always interesting to see what directions they sometimes go.
I agree about the Lanc. but it was a means of escape at night(if they were lucky) & breaking contact with the enemy night fighter. It certainly wouldn’t work in day light. There’s a very interesting video set called ‘Warriors of the Night’ which actually shows the ‘Corkscrew’, the night fighter, for the simulation is an A-26. It shows night fighter operations & detections from both sides.
I didn’t realise my details were hidden, not being that computer literate & not having much time on my hands, I’m not even sure how to put them up. Same as putting pictures up on the site, it would be nice if someone would tell me how.
As for the technical stuff, I for one, am always interested, so don’t hesitate. I always like to put in actual details (if I can) when making a relevant point. I find that a single sentence remark is usually fairly meaningless.

Best wishes,
Neilly

ps. Are you the same Christer that does the Tempest web site?

RE: Best American Fighter?

Scot and Mick,
I can assure You that I took no offence at all since I didn´t name any fighter in my postings. I was of the opinion that you hit Neilly a little too hard and I simply expressed that view.
Scot,
the excuse “I don’t always have the time to reply” really was lame since You found time to comment on other postings!
Be that as it may, no hard feelings, no time for that!

🙂 Christer 🙂

RE: Best American Fighter?

Neilly,
some posting I´ve read expressed the joy of having a female member on the forum and I remembered it as beeing You, sorry about that, just be grateful that I didn´t spam You with marriage proposals! 🙂
Regrettably Your profile is hidden so no indication to be gathered from that source. 🙁
It´s my experience that a topic often doesn´t end where it started, it´s easy to divert from the original subject. On the occasions when I do get technical I worry that I´m overdoing it and am boring people in the process. You seem to like it however, and hopefully You´re not the only one, so I´ll have my fits in the future as well!?
About the night fighters, of course there were two seaters but, I was focussed on the single seat types being discussed. I do, however, strongly believe that in terms of handling qualities a Lanc never out manoeuvered any fighter. Maybe in darkness they could pull off a stunt or two but not in general terms.

Regards,
Christer

RE: Best American Fighter?

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 06-12-01 AT 11:21 AM (GMT)]Dear All,
I make no apology for using the Mosquito to put across certain arguements! The problem is, I have alot of data on this aeroplane so it’s easier for me to use as a ‘role model’. I find the lack of hard data, coming from other parties, makes it difficult to have constructive discussions. I’ve already said as much in other posts!!! As regard the comments I made concerning Gen. Arnold, it was in the context, that even He did not rate the P-38 that highly & was prepared to get hold of better equipment for the USAAC! Even if it meant British aeroplanes, in his air force. The point I’m trying to make is, to judge how good a particular aeroplane is, you not only have to look at data, but what the pilots think of it, your Allies & more to the point your enemies, think of it! The question is “what is the best” not “what is your favourite”, which at the end of the day, it always seems to come down too!
As for the technical stuff- Bring on them Reynolds Numbers, Power/weight ratios, wing loads, aerofoil sections. Just make it interesting!
The night fighter pilot would have been looking at what was happening in front of his aeroplane & relying on information from his radar operator for directions.

OH! By the way SHE is a HE! Well I was last time I looked!

Pedantically yours,
Neilly

ps I don’t get upset (‘cos I’m naturally bitter & twisted. Only joking)I do however like a good discussion. I think Keymags have done us proud with this site, which I feel is sometimes not used to it’s full potential. There are exceptions & I think that Philo is doing a cracking job with his photos.
Neilly

RE: Best American Fighter?

Sorry Christer, no offence meant ! 🙁
I should actually have replied to Neilly………but no offence to him either 🙂

My comments were more of a joke really….it always amazes me how when someone asks a specific question…some folks go off on a tangent talking about everything but the original question. 🙂

Of course it’s happening again right now because I’m not even talking about which was the best American fighter….although I would say it was the Mustang.

A little advice for Scooter if I may……..If you want to talk about single engined fighters, or which was the best American fighter…..then ask a question about twin engined fighters, or maybe even four engined bombers (!), or which was the best fighter from every other nation except America…you should get all the answers you require then……:-)

All in jest of course and no offence meant to anyone (in particular) 😉

TTFN
Mick

RE: Best American Fighter?

Christer- Please, don’t take my comment personally! Just after you hear the words Mosquito and Mustang so many times everyday. Well, it can get on your nerves! I am very busy and I look at the forum mostly from work. Which, I don’t always have the time to reply. I like to post a topic and look at it later to hear everyones thoughts and ideas. I wish I had more time to reply back to everyone. I am fairly new to this forum. So, maybe I am doing something wrong. We are all friends here. (or I hope so?) We come from different parts of the world but, we all love military aviation. So, I hope I haven’t offended you or anyone else?

RE: Best American Fighter?

Guys,
didn´t Neilly mention the Mossie simply because it was included in a test that was referred to? Then she got carried away with the anecdote about Hap Arnold!
The question was about specified AMERICAN fighters and neither the Mossie nor the Spit falls into that cathegory, and to my knowledge none of them has ever been voted for as the best AMERICAN fighter.
My reply was of a technical/scientifical nature held in general terms and since there was no comment by Scooter I take it that it was of no interest whatsoever to him!?
I doubt that I´ll bother the next time?!

RE: Best American Fighter?

P9306- Well what can I say! I didn’t realize that the Mosquito was so popular in the U.K. I thought I would hear the word Spitfire much more than I have. That said, I understand. In the states you hear Mustang over and over again. I have a idea! If, I really want to get people going…….All I have to do is post a question regarding the Mosquito and I’ll get a hundred hits!

RE: Best American Fighter?

I was wondering when the Mosquito would enter into this argument…….AGAIN !

Why is it that Scooter has asked several times about SINGLE ENGINED FIGHTERS……and people turn round and talk about TWIN ENGINED MOSQUITOS ?

I know how you must feel Scooter, because I have asked SPECIFIC questions before on several forums, and got the same kind of replies……but you at least seem to be doing better this time round 🙂

RE: Best American Fighter?

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 05-12-01 AT 01:18 PM (GMT)]Neilly,
thanks for responding to a technical/scientifical nutter!
Actually, I thought about discussing wingloading as well as other aspects such as “combat flap settings”, closely related to “opening the radiator flaps”, but decided that my post would be long enough without indulging too deeply.
About the Lancaster out turning night fighters, well, the fighter pilot had his face stuck in a boot staring into a radar screen. I believe that it didn´t require much manoeuvering on the part of the Lanc to get “out of sight”. During daytime, with visual contact, it never happened!?

In my opinion you can´t judge the qualities of a fighter by the number of kills. This number depends on many more factors, such as the tactical situation and, above all, the skills of the jockey.
I mean, even if the allies and the germans swapped hardware, Victory Europe would have gone the way it did anyway.
One specific type has been very highly appraised and I regard that as some kind of a wartime propaganda lie to satisfy home opinion of the war effort. If you take the time to read various reports you´ll find that it didn´t excel in any aspect apart from range and endurance.
(I´ll probably get tared and fethered for this but, what the heck, it´s my opinion!)

I also think that the largest proportion of the credit for victory should go to the jockeys, they were the deciding factor!

Regards,
Christer

RE: Best American Fighter?

Christer, I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said. However, you seem to have forgotten about wing area & wing loading. Just because something is big & heavy doesn’t mean it cannot have reasonable turning capabilities. I’m thinking of the Lancaster & corkscrew turning to out turn the enemy night fighters.
There are also other little tecniques to help turn certain aeroplanes quicker. The Mosquito could increase it’s turn rate by opening the radiator flaps, (a sort of early vectored thrust).

Regards,
Neilly

RE: Best American Fighter?

The P-38 had many good qualities! I think it was very under estimated? It flew in every theater and had many high scoring aces including the two highest scoring American Aces. Thought, I would still pick the Corsair!