Best Destroyer in India/China

Off Topic Post:

Hey Goldie,

Actually its only a short breather. I have 1+ month(s) break. Well, sort of a break, since I am leaving my present company. By the rules and regulations I had to give them at least one months notice. So, they didn’t give me any real work, only some documentation and training of new employee kinda stuff. So bit of a breather. But, once I join the new place things should get pretty hectic like before. So, the fact is, I’ll never be able post like I used. All posting at CDF and AFM came to a grinding halt, when I got employed. Still, I at least visited CDF and AFM whenever I could, to check out whats new, but no posting. On the other hand, I haven’t been to ACIG and many other forums in ages. Its unlikely that my accounts are even working. But, thats life I guess!

Welcome to the global workforce! 😀

Yes, making a living will take away a lot of your time from your hobbies. But the cool thing with this one is you can always pick it up no matter after how long a delay.

Best of luck with your career, Hyperwarp!

add to that, nearing service-

051C – 2
054A – 2-4 (If anybody has photographic evidence of more than 2 seperately identifiable hulls please let me know.)

Whilst the Delhi may be the best all rounder, it is likely that the 052C and Sovremmenys better it in AShM armament and equal or better it in AAW performance.

054A – currently two under construction in both HP and HD shipyards. In HP, one is already launched and looks like all of the sensors are added, not sure about VLS, but probably ready to undergo sea-testing soon. The second one now sits in the construction area where the first one used to be. It looks like about 4-6 months behind in construction compared to the first.
For the two in HD, one looks like the sensors are going to be fit soon and maybe launched in a couple of months. The other one just showed up in late November. If I was to guess, probably 3 months behind the first HD 054A.
There are plenty of photos of this on both CDF and SDF.
This along with 071 LPD are probably the two most watched projects, so you have nice progression of their photos.

I meantioned those right at the beginning……………..

But the second list was the new ones in service i.e. 052B, 052C, 054, 956, 956EM. I left out the older ships.

051C maybe nearing service, but still they are complex ships. May be not as complex as the 052C, but it’ll take some more time I think….

054A is I think some distance away from service…….

the 054A in HuangPu SY is nearing completetion. The sensor suit have already
been installed. Probably only waiting for VSL and testing. I’ve heard that the engines have already been started. no concrete proof though…

add to that, nearing service-

051C – 2
054A – 2-4 (If anybody has photographic evidence of more than 2 seperately identifiable hulls please let me know.)

Whilst the Delhi may be the best all rounder, it is likely that the 052C and Sovremmenys better it in AShM armament and equal or better it in AAW performance.

I meantioned those right at the beginning……………..

But the second list was the new ones in service i.e. 052B, 052C, 054, 956, 956EM. I left out the older ships.

051C maybe nearing service, but still they are complex ships. May be not as complex as the 052C, but it’ll take some more time I think….

054A is I think some distance away from service…….

Ops…….I have to correct the above ….:o 😮

PLAN – in service
052B – 2
052C – 2
054 – 2
956 – 2
956EM – 2

add to that, nearing service-

051C – 2
054A – 2-4 (If anybody has photographic evidence of more than 2 seperately identifiable hulls please let me know.)

Whilst the Delhi may be the best all rounder, it is likely that the 052C and Sovremmenys better it in AShM armament and equal or better it in AAW performance.

Actually Numbers wise……….though there seem to be many types of ships in the PLAN:

From the ones in service,

PLAN
052B – 2
052C – 2
054 – 2

IN
TYPE 15 – 3
TALWAR – 3

Ops…….I have to correct the above ….:o 😮

PLAN – in service
052B – 2
052C – 2
054 – 2
956 – 2
956EM – 2

Actually Numbers wise……….though there seem to be many types of ships in the PLAN:

From the ones in service,

PLAN
052B – 2
052C – 2
054 – 2

IN
TYPE 15 – 3
TALWAR – 3

between the two, I would go for the new chinese destroyers..even if they are inferior in its fire control and armament to India’s latest one.. the most important fact is that Chinese ships are being pumped out faster and in general, having more is also a good thing.

The question was which is better and Delhi is certainly the better one. The numbers is a different matter.

between the two, I would go for the new chinese destroyers..even if they are inferior in its fire control and armament to India’s latest one.. the most important fact is that Chinese ships are being pumped out faster and in general, having more is also a good thing.

Hey Hyperwarp. Glad to see you back posting again!

Off Topic Post:

Hey Goldie,

Actually its only a short breather. I have 1+ month(s) break. Well, sort of a break, since I am leaving my present company. By the rules and regulations I had to give them at least one months notice. So, they didn’t give me any real work, only some documentation and training of new employee kinda stuff. So bit of a breather. But, once I join the new place things should get pretty hectic like before. So, the fact is, I’ll never be able post like I used. All posting at CDF and AFM came to a grinding halt, when I got employed. Still, I at least visited CDF and AFM whenever I could, to check out whats new, but no posting. On the other hand, I haven’t been to ACIG and many other forums in ages. Its unlikely that my accounts are even working. But, thats life I guess!

Yeah that would be good.

I asked Jonesy what the PLAN needs to counter Seawolf and Virginia Class SSNs, along with those Ultra quiet SSKs about 2 years back. Here are some extracts of his post.

SURTASS and SOSUS network

Competent SSNs

ASW aircraft in numbers (high-endurance A/C and fitted with multi-channel sonobuoy processing capability, with a decent radar, competent ESM and a good EO/IR system)

ASW helicopters in numbers (With an advanced dipping sonar, as well as carriage capacity for a couple of decent LWTs)

DDH For Carrying helicopters (fitted with a active low-frequency towed array, armament sufficient for self-protection and CODLAG propulsion to minimise ownship accoustic signature)

C3I, SatComms (C3I backend and satcomms infrastructure that would be required to integrate it all into one coherent ASW plan)

Shhhheeeeeesh…………..That looks very expensive 😮 .

Hey Hyperwarp. Glad to see you back posting again!

For China I would go with the 052C followed by the 052B and 054A. I don’t really look at the 052C as an AEGIS. More like a floating S-300 battery with sensor fusion and with antiship missiles that look like Tactical Tomahawks to boot. The ship seems to have an incredible wide range of sensors that we have only begun to scratch.

For India, I would go with the Talwars, then the Delhis.

If it is just for looks, I would go with the Sov EM and the original 054s and 051, 052, and 052B for China, Delhi for India. I just love their cluttered looks.

The oldest sources mentioned even an export version of the Malachit SSM to be fitted in the Delhi….Also I remembered reading a 86′ vintage Janes naval rewiev (or something) that mentioned that India was planning to aquire a Kresta-II class cruiser(s) from USSR…wonder would that have happen or not:confused:

Interesting stuff about the Delhi class..

Structure: The Delhi Class design, for which Russia’s Severnoye Design Bureau (SDB) acted as a consultant, are hybrids of Western and Russian technology – incorporating elements of the Sovremenny Class destroyer and the Rajput Class (Kashin-II) destroyer with the locally-designed Godavari Class frigate, including the frigate’s most unique aspect, namely the large dual helicopter hangar for two Sea King Mk.42B helicopters. The huge missile blast deflectors on INS Delhi indicate an original intention to fit the supersonic 3M-80 (NATO: SS-N-22 Sunburn) AShM which was deemed too costly. INS Mysore and INS Mumbai lack these blast deflectors.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Delhi.html

Practically I rather think the Sovremenny EM is the best ship in China’s inventory. Two Kashtans, Shtil-1, twin 130mm gun, 4 TT’s, a helo and 8 Moskits. It’s not as stealthy as the others, but stealth is much overrated for these half-measure ships anyway. Type52B has some stealth measures, but they are not intensive enought to work to full advantage. The Delhi isn’t exactly stealth either. Kolkata is one of these will-be ships and can’t be compared to any existing ships. For now there is a break in Chinese shipbuilding when it comes to surface vessels. All yards (not only in China, but in the entire world) are full with commercial orders for now. THat means that whatever warship they intend to build, has to wait untill one of the other warships is finished to take its spot. I think they’ll stay at this for a while. They’ll have to test 52C for quite a while too. 51C seems to be failure considering her long stay in port and slow way of completion (rectifying mistakes). It would have been better to be a huge cruiser instead of what it is now.
It will take at least 3 years to figure out all the problems in 52C, Kolkata isn’t even completed yet and Barak2 is even further away from getting ready. Then it will require another few years for ironing the bugs out of the design. (as a reference, the Zeven Provincien, was here a few weeks ago, has only recently been found really ready. Some minor errors are still there and all ships have their Electronic warfare system in front of the bridge removed because it has to get adapted, that ship is now 3 or more years old…)

All together the Sovremenny is the most proven (with the EM having additional proven systems added) of the Chinese destroyers and most likely the strongest of them too.
As for India, the Delhi is the only thing to compare it to…
We don’t know that much about the other Chinese ships either. Certainly not about the sonars and ASW stuff they carry.

I think the argument over whether the Chinese are cocentrating on Submarnes or surface ships is mute, there seems to be equal concentration on both with the ambition of building a balanced fleet.

I agree but the fact of the matters is that in the near future the 095 SSN are guaranteed funding… That is all we can conclude for now.

It maybe that there will be many other surface projects as well but it sure seems that sub crowd has a better way of securing funding .

Yeah that would be good.

I asked Jonesy what the PLAN needs to counter Seawolf and Virginia Class SSNs, along with those Ultra quiet SSKs about 2 years back. Here are some extracts of his post.

SURTASS and SOSUS network

Competent SSNs

ASW aircraft in numbers (high-endurance A/C and fitted with multi-channel sonobuoy processing capability, with a decent radar, competent ESM and a good EO/IR system)

ASW helicopters in numbers (With an advanced dipping sonar, as well as carriage capacity for a couple of decent LWTs)

DDH For Carrying helicopters (fitted with a active low-frequency towed array, armament sufficient for self-protection and CODLAG propulsion to minimise ownship accoustic signature)

C3I, SatComms (C3I backend and satcomms infrastructure that would be required to integrate it all into one coherent ASW plan)

Shhhheeeeeesh…………..That looks very expensive 😮 .

SURTASS and SOSUS system based in the pacific is quite out of the question. Beijing have no bases in the pacific to maintain a system of sensor array and no partner to split the cost.

Competent SSN are already under development as funding for 095 have been approved. Funny as we don’t even know a thing about 093 yet…

As for ASW aircraft in numbers, I’ve never quite understood why PLAN have brushed off the fixed wing ASW aricraft. SH-5 could’ve been a great platform for that job. It has enough payload and range but the Y-8 MPA could also serve as dedicated ASW assets. Advanced sonobuoy would be purchased from Canada and once fitted with torps could make these into potent ASW platforms.

I wouldn’t make any guess on 052D
When has anyone postulated Chinese development before the show casing of a certain model or before the keel of the ship was laid down?
The 052C came as a complete surprise to everyone when it showed up at Hudong.

We have no idea what PLAN plans for its surface fleet as of this moment.
I guess we will just have to wait and see. Since Hudong/Jiangnan is moving out, new development will most probably have to wait untill the move is finished.

What I like to see in the near future is the deployment of more 054A with better ASW suits and ASW helicopter.
ie. the TAS we’ve seen on brocheurs or atleast the VDS system on Luhu and new ASW heli based on Harbin Aviation Industry /Eurocopter medium heli Z-15.

What we do know is that 095 SSN is approved as the next 5 year plan. So submarine may still get most of the funding.

I think the argument over whether the Chinese are cocentrating on Submarnes or surface ships is mute, there seems to be equal concentration on both with the ambition of building a balanced fleet.

I wouldn’t make any guess on 052D
When has anyone postulated Chinese development before the show casing of a certain model or before the keel of the ship was laid down?
The 052C came as a complete surprise to everyone when it showed up at Hudong.

We have no idea what PLAN plans for its surface fleet as of this moment.
I guess we will just have to wait and see. Since Hudong/Jiangnan is moving out, new development will most probably have to wait untill the move is finished.

What I like to see in the near future is the deployment of more 054A with better ASW suits and ASW helicopter.
ie. the TAS we’ve seen on brocheurs or atleast the VDS system on Luhu and new ASW heli based on Harbin Aviation Industry /Eurocopter medium heli Z-15.

What we do know is that 095 SSN is approved as the next 5 year plan. So submarine may still get most of the funding.

Yeah that would be good.

I asked Jonesy what the PLAN needs to counter Seawolf and Virginia Class SSNs, along with those Ultra quiet SSKs about 2 years back. Here are some extracts of his post.

SURTASS and SOSUS network

Competent SSNs

ASW aircraft in numbers (high-endurance A/C and fitted with multi-channel sonobuoy processing capability, with a decent radar, competent ESM and a good EO/IR system)

ASW helicopters in numbers (With an advanced dipping sonar, as well as carriage capacity for a couple of decent LWTs)

DDH For Carrying helicopters (fitted with a active low-frequency towed array, armament sufficient for self-protection and CODLAG propulsion to minimise ownship accoustic signature)

C3I, SatComms (C3I backend and satcomms infrastructure that would be required to integrate it all into one coherent ASW plan)

Shhhheeeeeesh…………..That looks very expensive 😮 .

Gollevainen, do you have specs for the HHQ-9A?

No
all that I know about it is what the Weyers 05/07 says about HQ-9:

diameter: 47cm
length: 68 m (must be typo of 6.8???)
weigth: 1300 kg
speed: mach 4.2
range: 120 sm (sea mile?? same as nautical mile????:confused: cant say…)
powerplant: f-RM (solid fuel rocket motor
guidance: ??

the same book mentioned a DDH being build in Dalian…wether this was the seccond 051C (it listed 115 as seccond 051B) I cannot say…