Blue Dart B752 at Mumbai and Bangalore.. "mowed" runway edge lights on

Both the Blue Dart incident and the Mangalore fatal crash throw focus on Indian Aviation safety and training.

The airline industry in India is booming. It is impossible to have growth alone without improving on safety and training.

You’re right, you didn’t say the rest of the aviation world is free of all problems, but you did direct your post very clearly and specifically at Indian aviation. It’s what you did say that’s significant, not what you didn’t say. 😉

The report when it does come out (already slightly overdue by a few days) should be an accurate account of what happened since FDR, CVR, ATC transcripts and ground radar plots collectively will bring out as many facts as are needed.
There are also some survivors.
Nowhere have I said that the rest of the aviation world is free of all problems but they try to keep improving and lift the safety standards barrier even higher.

None of that really proves anything, Jay. Hopefully the vast majority of people with even a vague interest in commercial aviation are fully aware of how much crap and frankly inaccurate journalism there is out there, so basing any opinion on comments like this is ridiculous:

“After the captain of another Air India Express jet left the cockpit for a bathroom break earlier this month, the plane encountered turbulence and the co-pilot apparently failed to initially respond properly. The plane dived thousands of feet before the crew fully regained control, scaring passengers”

The co-pilot apparently failed to initially respond correctly? He either did or didn’t respond correctly, and had that comment been based on fact there’d be no ‘apparently’ about it. It’s own wording proves it hasn’t been written with an in depth knowledge of what actually happened.

“Regulators and international air-safety experts are now focusing on ways to fix persistent shortcomings in India’s pilot-training programs. Indian officials already have proposed tightening rules ranging from acceptable landing procedures to fatigue-prevention schedules for crews. Broader mandates are likely”.

Emirates are widely considered one of the best airlines in the world, but fatigue was mentioned as a possible factor after their A340 tail strike. Why is the fact this particular comment is referring to an Indian airline significant when many, many other airlines have also been mentioned when talking about fatigue?

If you look closely enough at any airline in the world you could come up with things that seem quite damning on the surface, but still, they prove nothing. I’m with Kabir on this one in thinking your statements are far too sweeping and generally seem to be based on the fact you think commercial aviation in India is unsafe without really having anything to back it up (sensationalist journalism and anecdotal accounts aside).

Hi KabirT

The loss of lives in Indian Airspace was a tragedy simply waiting to happen, it has and maybe the tragedy at Mangalore will waken India’s DGCA into rapid improvements and not risk an International downgrading for poor safety standards.

See 27Vet 25th June 2010, 04:56 and nJayM 26th June 2010, 01:14 where the WSJ ASIA NEWS JUNE 21, 2010 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704050804575318553971705946.html is quoted in the thread about the Mangalore crash.

Quoting from the same WSJ article –

“……Regulators and international air-safety experts are now focusing on ways to fix persistent shortcomings in India’s pilot-training programs. Indian officials already have proposed tightening rules ranging from acceptable landing procedures to fatigue-prevention schedules for crews. Broader mandates are likely….

….Other areas under scrutiny include safeguards when pilots temporarily leave the cockpit for breaks. There also are stricter requirements that all aviators—particularly expatriate pilots—speak good English and are well-versed in air-traffic-control terminology. The captain of the accident plane was a British citizen of Serbian descent, and the co-pilot was an Indian national….

….Indian regulators also are considering ways to ensure that pilots are trained and assigned so they fully understand the particular handling characteristics of a designated aircraft model……

…..According to people knowledgeable about the crash probe, the tentative conclusion by investigators is that pilots failed to adhere to widely accepted safety rules about breaking off an approach if the plane is losing altitude too quickly, has too much speed just before landing or is likely to touch dangerously far down the runway. The lack of scorched rubber or other evidence of extreme braking on the runway supports the idea that the plane tried to lift off again. Information retrieved from the plane’s flight-data and cockpit-voice recorders, however, indicates some confusion and hesitation, these people said.

…Bill Voss, …….makeup of the crew could have contributed to a breakdown in cockpit discipline or communication. The dramatic growth of Indian aviation has “resulted in an influx of expatriate pilots with language and cultural challenges,” according to Mr. Voss. India’s regulators “have been trying to compensate for this,” he said, with special mandated training to alleviate approach and landing hazards……

….”the probe will be completed by the end of this month and a report will be out July 1.”……

….DGCA officials are scrambling to demonstrate a tougher approach. They are considering imposing or reiterating rules that for many years have been mainstays of global aviation safety….

….The agency, for example, months ago proposed barring most pilots from switching between different jetliner models during the same duty period. Flying multiple aircraft types during the same day or week poses extra safety challenges, as pilots tend to be more comfortable and perform best when they establish a routine behind the controls of a single aircraft model. U.S. carriers don’t allow pilots to switch models in such fashion, and the practice generally is frowned upon by international safety experts…..

…regulators spelled out rules for landings that are second nature for pilots in many other regions. Rather than trying to please passengers with the smoothest possible touchdown—a goal previously emphasized by some Indian carriers—the latest directive stressed that the proper criteria are arriving “at the correct speed and touchdown zone on the runway.” ….

….After the captain of another Air India Express jet left the cockpit for a bathroom break earlier this month, the plane encountered turbulence and the co-pilot apparently failed to initially respond properly. The plane dived thousands of feet before the crew fully regained control, scaring passengers ….

….For years, safety experts from the U.S. and other countries have quietly criticized Indian airlines and regulators for lax training. In some cases, according to these critics, newly certified co-pilots don’t have the training or self-confidence to cope with unusual maneuvers or situations.

….Critics also have faulted airports and air-traffic controllers, citing hazards from birds and frequent instances of near-collisions in certain busy airspace. On Friday, the DGCA official said his agency is investigating nearly 50 instances of planes flying dangerously close to each other….

….Two passenger airplanes narrowly missed a head-on collision at Mumbai’s domestic airport this month. Last year, a helicopter carrying President Pratibha Patil landed on the same runway from which a Delhi-bound Air India aircraft was about to take off….

….In 2009, the FAA considered downgrading India’s safety rating, a move that would have precluded big carriers like Jet Airways and state-controlled Air India from expanding service to and from the U.S. The U.S. agency’s primary concern was whether India’s air-safety regulators had enough independence and expertise….

…..the FAA decided against a downgrade. Indian officials, for their part, promised to beef up the DGCA by quickly hiring extra staff or getting Indian carriers to temporarily transfer some of their employees to fill hundreds of new positions created for government inspectors.

…;.the DGCA has signaled it is especially interested in making sure that cash-strapped airlines don’t scrimp on training, maintenance and essential operational controls. Government inspectors are expected to conduct more ramp inspections, ratchet up enforcement of pilot skills and require simulator training that highlights closer cooperation between captains and first officers in emergencies. “

Need I go on and all these serve to show that the shortcomings in the standards are wide open to scrutiny and criticism and unless the Indian DGCA ‘snap’ to it there are going to be other tragedies?

What happened with Blue Dart had and has serious implications and the context of which is covered in the WSJ article.

The report from the Mangalore crash may be slightly overdue.

I sincerely hope the DGCA do pull their socks up and not put India’s global economic stampede before aviation safety.

Every airline crash that has happened in India and has been investigated by Indian authorities has ALWAYS been released publicly. Everything from the Saudi-Kazakh collision to a Kingfisher tire burst investigation is put up on DGCA website, which then later is archived and is available on request from DGCA.

The BlueDart incident was serious, agreed and was the Captains fault but then again I have read hundreds of such incidents all around the world over the years. Indian Civil Aviation safety record is very good, there were no fatalities in the Indian skies for 10 years before the Mangalore crash.

I am not afraid to speak up in the interests of the furtherance of safety standards and better flight crew training.

As no one should be but you should be familiar with the history and workings of an area and organization before you pull down the whole workings of an industry. Not just make sweeping calls over one incident.

You seem to have made quite a lot of sweeping judgments on an incident that is still awaiting a report?

The report/s of this incident will be purely internal to India as thankfully it did not affect any large airline/carrier (your own post 10th June 2010, 07:24 about possible debris).
The findings from this incident cannot be or will unlikely to be required by international aviation law to be made public to the outside world.
This incident with Blue Dart unlike the Mangalore crash which the US Safety authorities and Boeing are involved with; and therefore the facts will to a great extent reach the International organisations that are concerned with aviation safety. In the case of the Mangalore crash, India is likely to have to ‘smarten up’ it’s act rapidly with respect to Aviation standards with an emphasis on safety.
I don’t make judgements, the facts of the report speak for themselves.
A trainee first officer erred, and a supervising captain failed to reduce the impact of the problem, therefore how good was the supervised training or the supervisor him/herself?
I am not afraid to speak up in the interests of the furtherance of safety standards and better flight crew training.

If the facts in the report which Steve posted are correct, I think that the captain will have a lot of explaining to do.

Hi KabirT

My reference to International Airlines is simply because if they are delayed due to the shortsightedness of Indian Regulations handed down/sanctioned by the DG Aviation (topic is referenced in this forum in the recent crash at Mangalore awaiting final outcome reports) that permits poor standards of training, poor supervision and most importantly standards that will certainly not wash with any major European, American or Asian airline operating in and out of major international Airports.

You seem to have made quite a lot of sweeping judgments on an incident that is still awaiting a report?

Hi KabirT

My reference to International Airlines is simply because if they are delayed due to the shortsightedness of Indian Regulations handed down/sanctioned by the DG Aviation (topic is referenced in this forum in the recent crash at Mangalore awaiting final outcome reports) that permits poor standards of training, poor supervision and most importantly standards that will certainly not wash with any major European, American or Asian airline operating in and out of major international Airports.

The International Standards are continuously being lifted and this is in the interests of passenger and aircraft safety and if at certain countries’ airports these standards are compromised by ‘riskay flying’ by internal operators such as Blue Dart, then it is worthy of positive criticism.
Any trading relationship with DHL does not absolve Blue Dart from operating (including providing training for flight crew) at the highest standards at airports where other safety concious flights are operating in and out of.

The sum total of this incident is that the Captain was unable to take rapid control when his trainee erred.
The rest is in the voice recordings and statements of the crew at investigation/s.

Why the specific pointing out to ‘international airlines’ only? :confused:

There is never an excuse for poor quality, training and even worse poor quality supervision or lack of intervention capability by the captain.
The whole think ‘sucks’ out there.
Too much of throwing safety to the winds and it can stay out there for all I care as long as it doesn’t affect International airlines operating in and out of India.
Sadly it often does as in this example where runway lights were taken out. It could cause delays to other safety concious international flights.

Oh! boy it gets worse out there.
DG Aviation should ground the flight crew immediately pending investigation/inquiry and reprimand the airline for having inadequate quality on board flight crew training including complete airport orientation/awareness.
Wonder why the “drunken horse” didn’t simply attempt to abort the take off?
I suppose on the way down at Bangalore the touch down for the passengers felt more like riding “a drunken bucking bronco”

I wonder who told the investigators the plane feld like a “drunken horse”. Blue Dart operates cargo flights only. I consider it unlikely the captain or first officer is said that. If they had, they would have they clearly incriminated themselves by making it obvious they knew something was wrong. Was there someone flying jumpseat or as passenger (e.g. load-master)?

I wonder what the weather conditions where like. Very low visbility is probably the only thing that could excuse this blunder. And even then it is not much of an excuse!

Blue Dart Aviation Boeing 757-200, freight flight DZ-201 from Mumbai to Bangalore (India), obviously did not line up on the center line of the departure runway 27 in Mumbai and took 15 runway edge lights out of the left hand side of the runway before the crew corrected but now took 4 more edge lights out of the right hand side. The takeoff and flight was continued, …..
….Blue Dart Aviation commented, that the airplane had a flat tyre after landing in Bangalore. India’s Directorate General of Civil Aviation is investigating…….
…Aviation sources in Mumbai say, the first officer was a trainee under supervision and may have been “tested” by the captain. The takeoff looked like a “drunken horse” departing.
Source: The Aviation Herald

Oh! boy it gets worse out there.
DG Aviation should ground the flight crew immediately pending investigation/inquiry and reprimand the airline for having inadequate quality on board flight crew training including complete airport orientation/awareness.
Wonder why the “drunken horse” didn’t simply attempt to abort the take off?
I suppose on the way down at Bangalore the touch down for the passengers felt more like riding “a drunken bucking bronco”

Its lucky none of the debris on the runway interfered with other aircraft.