BoB Hurricane – Sackcloth and ashes

I see collecting in general as a good sport to keep people out of the Pubs!

Never quite thought of it like that, but you’re right…..if only because I can’t afford to drink now! 😀

Snap fasteners is certainly a possibility…. they have pretty much corroded away but were made from steel. Still no closer to learning what the fabric is from though unfortunately!

Personally I don’t see anything wrong with selling items from crash sites. I do however strongly disagree with the practice of giving some items a very dubious provenance in order toincrease their value.
I sell motorsport, motorcycle and aviation models and memorabilia although most of my items are motorsport items.
I recently sold a rear wing endplate from a Silk Cut Jaguar Group C car. It had originally come from the estate of a well known motorpsport author who was a friend of a friend. It was damaged allegedly after the car hit its own pit board when the driver got too close to the pit wall. The incident was well known and well documented at the time but I couldn’t find any account or pictures on the web.
I posted the item on a forum to see if I could get pictures of the car to check the damage was authentic with a view to selling it on Ebay with a picture of the damaged car as provenance. It never actually got that far as a forum member made me a good offer. He had pictures of the car and was satisfied that my claims were correct.
Had I not sold it and not been able to obtain pictures I would have listed it on Ebay with the story of its supposed origins but made it clear I hadn’t been able to authenticate it. I think this is the only fair way to sell such an item. I fully accept that some other dealers may make mistakes when trying to identify the origin of parts but there is no excuse for deliberate lies to try to increase the value of an item.
I think Mike is to be congratulated on being honest enough to remove his “Hurricane” parts from sale. Clearly there is some doubt over them and I hope he is able to positively identify them at some point in the future. It is a great shame not all dealers are as honest.

Never really gave it a thought.

So long as the chap got out, I see no harm. I’m sure MoD wouldn’t want it any more?

The collector’s world is avid & fascinating &, within the rules, as with national monuments & coins, I see collecting in general as a good sport to keep people out of the Pubs!

Personally, I’ve only collected postage stamps – & pebbles from the beach. Yes, even that’s forbidden now??

= Tim

Tim,

Since we’ve been having a debate about it here the last few days I wonder what your views on the wreckage of crashed aircraft being dug-up. Most museums have engines and other relics on display these days, but what are your thoughts about the buying and selling of relics by private collectors?

I hope you don’t mind me asking but I don’t know if I’ll ever have such a chance again.

Oh, wish I’d thought of that!!

But open your PM box??

= Tim

They look like snap fasteners, it could be the remains of the parachute pack?

Ken

Given that Tim, thankfully, made use of his Irvin or GQ brolly then I don’t think it could be from his parachute pack.

Andy – please clear your box!!

Which image??

= Tim

Snaps is good thinking – I think! But too coarse for the pack – I think.

= Tim

here’s a response from the seller:

“Hi, This piece is 100% from this Hurricane and I have also been on a Hurri site myself and seen pieces of this material come up. The external skin is what I presumed it would be as I can’t think of another use for this material on the aircraft – it has the remains of steel fasteners of some type still visible. Would you have an idea of what this piece is, if not the external covering? Any input would be appreciated.
Regards
Mike”

They look like snap fasteners, it could be the remains of the parachute pack?

Ken

Right you are, Mike! Many thanks.

SoG

Well you prompted it, Andy!

Oddly enough, the Spit head armour came from an aeroplane flown by a certain Mr Appleford of 66 Squadron in 1940. By chance, there is another thread running about this very man at the moment!

The nicest thing that has come about from these discussions is that Mr Elkington himself has joined in the debate about the aeroplane he baled out of on 16 August 1940 over Sussex. That must be a first for this forum. Although we know each other of old, Tim, may I say welcome to this forum! An honour to have a Battle of Britain veteran amongst us.

Andy,
That solves the mystery then haha!
Well, having thought about all the info given by yourself i’m going to pull the related ebay auctions… its a shame as now these bits – whatever they may be are virtually useless to anyone. Is it possible though, in your opinion it could be the fireproof lagging for fuel pipes and the like? I don’t want to write these pieces off totally if there is any chance.
The grip bits are too thick to be the insulation material and they are scorched and brittle but like you say, a fire like that would have melted them beyond any recognition.
I have bought a few items from you before Andy and as you may remember provenance is a concern for myself as it is for everyone…. I emailed to ask about the Spit head armour before I realised who you actually were!
One good thing to come of this little episode though was being in contact with Tim which is quite an honour I have to say.
The items will be gone from ebay within the next few minutes to sit and wait until I can find out what they may be!!
Mike.

Yes, Mark – I was slightly scorched!!

= Tim

Anyway, according to Air Ministry Order PI55 7AKE of 1 April 1940:

“Pilots and aircrew shall, hitherto, carry at all times on board the aeroplane which they shall pilot a sack, AM, coal type. This is in order that subsequent recovery of the mangled wreckage by Maintenance Units might more easily be facilitated or, failing recovery at time of incident, allow the easier removal of said wreckage in later years”

Mystery solved…….:D

Communication, communication!!

Snide, Mike? – not yours, nor were the others so intended, I trust! Some critical observations – not a bad thing.

The sack still appeals to me!!= Tim

You’re Fired!

Communication, communication!!

Snide, Mike? – not yours, nor were the others so intended, I trust! Some critical observations – not a bad thing.

The sack still appeals to me!!

= Tim

Mike

I Feel the same about this forum, haven’t been with the Forum long, and items I have sold on eBay have came under fire by certain individiuals and the funny thing is, is that the comments have came from people who sold me the items in the first place!

I have found that certain well known members of the historic avaition world have traded on their well known names to rip newcomers off

pm’d you

Only this afternoon I was shown another e-bay purchase that had come from a well known purveyor of German aircraft parts in the West Country. Me109E may know who it is? By coincidence, this item had been through my hands before and was a very nice wing access panel from a Ju 87 lost in Russia and amongst stuff brought back by Jim Pearce. When sold on e-bay it had “acquired” a significant Battle of Britain history by the addition of a known Werke Nummer (5617)…..which had been applied very much in the German style of the period…but….wait for it….in black felt tip pen. The application of dubious histories to anonymous items is clearly rife on e-bay. I could give a very long list. I myself trade on e bay, I buy and sell all manner of aeronautica, and this practice of faking up a provenance harms everyone – including, ultimately, the purveyors of these fakes.

Having more than a passing or cursory knowledge of the innards of the Hurricane Mk I, my first response is that this is not “from around the bottom of the control column” or anywhere near it. The only thing I can think of is the asbestos “wrap” or sandwiching that might be found. Other than that, on the Hurricane there were canvas stowage pouches for the computer, the control locks and the First Aid kit. However, that was a much finer weave material as I recall. More like the khaki canvas of the standard service respirator. However, I was intimately involved with the recovery of this very aircraft and I can assure you that no such material was found or even survived. The control column had got so hot it was almost at the point of melting and all of the Dunlop rubber coating had gone. All I can say is that the item shown is not, as far as I can see, the very distinctive Dunlop coating. Banter aside, I am only trying to be helpful in clarifying what these items are – or are not!