Boeing "hints" at a 747 Advanced

Originally posted by wysiwyg
Absolutely true. The manufacturers and the airlines solicit the PR they can muster by claiming to have bedrooms and gyms on board but you can be darn sure that when that aircraft arrives it will contain little more than seats.

The 747-100’s had piano bars, etc. in their upper decks once upon a time (early 70’s perhaps?). Once an airline figured they could eliminate that in favor of more seats, everybody followed suit. Who is the only remaining airline today with a bar instead of more seats. Virgin Atlantic. Other than them, I don’t see anybody else putting casinos and hotels in their A380’s.

Originally posted by Matthew Murray
Oh bull****…

The 7E7 is nothing more than a smaller 777. They talk of spacious cabins, etc just like Airbus..but when it comes down to..you can expect the aircraft decked out with seats, etc…

The A380 the same…

I’m not saying the 7E7 is going to be spacious. I’m saying gonna be out and available just when it should be. Its gonna have the range and the capacity the industry looks to be favouring.

Absolutely true. The manufacturers and the airlines solicit the PR they can muster by claiming to have bedrooms and gyms on board but you can be darn sure that when that aircraft arrives it will contain little more than seats.

Originally posted by 4 engines good
No, Boeing will probably not sit idly if the A380 sells well. I guess what exactly will Boeing do depends on how well the A380 sells.

The two companies have a very different forecast for the ‘400-seat-and-larger’ market. Boeing reckons there will be demand for about 400 such aircraft only during the next two decades; Airbus predicts 1,400. Perhaps Boeing is going to sit and wait how the market responds before embarking in a full modernisation programme.

Or perhaps they’re going to cut their loses, concede that for the next two or three decades Airbus is going to outsell them in the very large aircraft market and try to make the 747 as attractive as possible without expending too much money and hope to grab 30%- 40% of that market. It’s either that or going for the full monty and developing a brand new aircraft that can take the Airbus full on, though the economic cost of this might put this option off.

Shame though. I’d love Boeing to develop a brand new jumbo.

I must admit, thats hit the nail on the head for me.

I think the 7E7 will be a winnder for Boeing I think as it will fit a growing market. the airline world seems to be picking itself up again after 9/11. Many airlines beginning to turn a profit again.

I smell a peak of Air travel approaching. Boeing are poised to capture this with the 7E7.

No, Boeing will probably not sit idly if the A380 sells well. I guess what exactly will Boeing do depends on how well the A380 sells.

The two companies have a very different forecast for the ‘400-seat-and-larger’ market. Boeing reckons there will be demand for about 400 such aircraft only during the next two decades; Airbus predicts 1,400. Perhaps Boeing is going to sit and wait how the market responds before embarking in a full modernisation programme.

Or perhaps they’re going to cut their loses, concede that for the next two or three decades Airbus is going to outsell them in the very large aircraft market and try to make the 747 as attractive as possible without expending too much money and hope to grab 30%- 40% of that market. It’s either that or going for the full monty and developing a brand new aircraft that can take the Airbus full on, though the economic cost of this might put this option off.

Shame though. I’d love Boeing to develop a brand new jumbo.

Do you really think Boeing’s going to sit back and let Airbus trump them with the A380, “i don’t think so”

Originally posted by KabirT
I think making the B747 a new version can be called sensible. I dont think Boeing would want to make a new airframe to compete with the A380. A380 is over 500 seats and maybe all airlines dont want those many. A higher range and ultra-modern B747 version sounds sensible.

Ah, someone with a little sense 😉 here here

I think making the B747 a new version can be called sensible. I dont think Boeing would want to make a new airframe to compete with the A380. A380 is over 500 seats and maybe all airlines dont want those many. A higher range and ultra-modern B747 version sounds sensible.

Originally posted by Bmused55 Boeing have recognised that most, I say MOST not all, airlines are opting for frequency over capacity. If that trend widens to long haul then it is Airbus that will loose out; For the A380 will not sell in this case and as we all know, this is a make or break product for Airbus.

I still say there’s only a very limited scope for that, as Slots in europe are becoming rarer and rarer. The Skies are congested as they are, and just because Boeing look at the States where there are no slots dosen’t mean that we all have to follow them blindly.

Yes, Point to Point is a great idea, but it’s just not possible in most places, due to lack of airspace/runway limitations/etc etc.

And that’s why I think the larger aircraft will prove to make more sense in the long run rather than lots of 772/332 size aicraft.

Here endeth the Sermon.

I know that Boeing won’t lose out on the whole of course- I was suggesting that the 747 might not be able to return any investment that is put into the 747 programme. In a way, it’s the success of aircraft like the 777 that might eventually be the end of the jumbo.

I agree with you that most airlines choose frequency over capacity. And that could be another reason not embark in expensive upgrades for the 747 when most of those airlines might choose to phase out the big plane and replace it with 777s or others.

All I was saying is that on a head to head confrontation between the 747 and the A380 the odds are not greatly in favour of the former. It is well true that most airlines might dismiss the idea of the luxurious ‘cruising ship’ settings the A380 can offer (although Richard Branson has made noises to the contrary) but isn’t this yet another advantage for the Airbus a/c? If high volume of passengers if what airlines want the Airbus could accommodate ridiculous amounts of them.

Originally posted by 4 engines good
I don’t know, I think Boeing could be shooting itself in the foot if it decides to get involved in expensive revampings for the 747.

Until recently the 747 had no rival and reigned supreme in the 400-plus market. Since Airbus formally launched the A380 sales of the 747 have been rather poor. New engines and economics surely are welcome news, but the fact remains that if one has to choose between the only two very large aircraft available to the public today, the Airbus seems to win hands down in most categories: brand new design and technology, bigger pax capacity, larger cargo area, more floor space, better economics and at least the same 8,000-mile range the Advanced 747 would offer (notice how Boeing’s statement says the 747 Advanced would be the only 400- to 500-seat jetliner offering 8,000 nautical miles range- no mention of jetliners with more than 500 seats).

It is possible that the 400-plus market might go into an irreversible decline, if more airlines decide to ditch very large aircraft and concentrate on the 300 to 400-seat a/c such as the 777 or the A330/A340. Or it is possible that the demand for 400+ aircraft continues going on strong- in which case few people would want to choose the 747 over a much more spacious, cheaper to run and profitable A380. In either scenario Boeing would lose out IMHO.

Firstly, its not known what ecomonics will be involved with the A380. So saying it wil be cheaper than a possible 747 advanced is useless. We just don’t know.

You say people will chose the more spacious A380?
Well let me tell you now, that means precisely ****. If an airline can pack 700 seats into one plane safely rather than 500, they will. The A380 may be billed as Spacious, but I bet my bottom dollar will be cramed full of seats.
At the end of the day the seating and “spaciousness” is down to the airline, not Boeing or Airbus.
The A380 may well hold 500 pax it spacious spleander. But the airlines will pack it full as mch as possible. Space costs monney.

You say that if the market starts favour 300-400 seat aircraft boeing will loose out?? well I think you could be wrong.
The 7E7 will be out, the 777-200LR and 777-300 will also be available. The 7E7 is project to seat up to 300-350 pax. We all know the 777’s. So no, I doubt boeing will loose out.

Boeing have recognised that most, I say MOST not all, airlines are opting for frequency over capacity. If that trend widens to long haul then it is Airbus that will loose out; For the A380 will not sell in this case and as we all know, this is a make or break product for Airbus.

But remember, Being are not even saying the 747adv is a possibility, they’re just having a sniff at the idea. There are many loyal 747 operators that would take up such an aircraft.

I don’t know, I think Boeing could be shooting itself in the foot if it decides to get involved in expensive revampings for the 747.

Until recently the 747 had no rival and reigned supreme in the 400-plus market. Since Airbus formally launched the A380 sales of the 747 have been rather poor. New engines and economics surely are welcome news, but the fact remains that if one has to choose between the only two very large aircraft available to the public today, the Airbus seems to win hands down in most categories: brand new design and technology, bigger pax capacity, larger cargo area, more floor space, better economics and at least the same 8,000-mile range the Advanced 747 would offer (notice how Boeing’s statement says the 747 Advanced would be the only 400- to 500-seat jetliner offering 8,000 nautical miles range- no mention of jetliners with more than 500 seats).

It is possible that the 400-plus market might go into an irreversible decline, if more airlines decide to ditch very large aircraft and concentrate on the 300 to 400-seat a/c such as the 777 or the A330/A340. Or it is possible that the demand for 400+ aircraft continues going on strong- in which case few people would want to choose the 747 over a much more spacious, cheaper to run and profitable A380. In either scenario Boeing would lose out IMHO.

i hope european does take some it would be nice if they did 😀 and id fly on it 2 orlando in the summer:D :p

Originally posted by Ren Frew
One wonders, therefore if airlines such as European will pick up some of those ex-BA 744’s when the time comes ?

Apparently Cathay Pacific are taking some, if not all of them.

One wonders, therefore if airlines such as European will pick up some of those ex-BA 744’s when the time comes ?

Originally posted by steve rowell
Would 744ER be a viable proposition, would any of their International routes support it

I’m not sure about that. BA are however operating 747’s on some routes where the 777 is not suitable. But the 747 is not full to capacity, somtime half or 2/3rds full.

Originally posted by robc
They got rif of all their classics. I would be nice to see more 747’s being ordered though!

Would 744ER be a viable proposition, would any of their International routes support it

Originally posted by robc
They got rif of all their classics. I would be nice to see more 747’s being ordered though!

BA have a policy of retireing aircraft around 15-20 years of age. Some of their early 747-400’s are approaching 15 years.

A viable replacment would be the 777-300.

They got rif of all their classics. I would be nice to see more 747’s being ordered though!

Originally posted by robc
Is BA going to just use the 777’s instead? Or do they have any Airbus long-haul plans aswell?

No, thats one of the points matt got wrong. BA are only trying to sell their older 744’s. Not the enrire fleet as Matt inimated. Same goes for UA.
And with the order books filling nicely for the 747, I don’t think its doing 1/10th as bad as matt is trying to make out.

It is rumour BA will replace their OLDER 744’s with 773’s