Boilers for INS Gorshkov

Jonsey
I have already made that request to mods !
Thank You

Guys
On my behalf, I apologise for getting off topic, and will delete all my irrelevent posts.

Lava
I suggest we take this to another thread, you seem so keen on showing just how great the IN is compared to the PN, lets have an actual thread to compare capabilities?

Jonsey
I have already made that request to mods !
Thank You

Mods,

With the agreement of all parties can we remove posts #122 through #133 inclusive. They are off topic and dont contribute to the thread in any positive manner.

Ahhh sigh! PAF_F*** wont improve!!

I give a Pakistani source and you give an Indian source…….no changer there then. Pakistan denies it and you claim it, again, no changer there.

According

We are drifting off the subject here……

You still have not answered my questions about Agostas and P-3Cs being on a PN “Wishlist”! Thought you may go silent on that one……

Continue live on dream world that it was in a GREAT PAKISTANI EXPERIMENT that GHazi was lost:D I gave u the oficial source now u back off:D

Paf boy do u know how to read or not… where did I mention ur augustas or p3c in wishlist 😀 All I mentioned was that wishlist (Ps: I was refering containing 70 F-16’s …lol ,AMRAAMS, J-10 and what not :D)
Your intention was to drift off subject post ur crap … if u have something to discuss on Gorshy post or just move on!

reality

“In the 1971 war the submarine PNS/M Ghazi met an accident while on a mine laying mission in the approaches to the Indian port of Vishakapatnum (Bay of Bengal) and sank about 0010. “

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/navy/index.html

as I said, even IN dont claim the Ghazi and are man enough to admit this.
Actual Indian and Pakistani sailors know what went on, not armchair strategists like us….

I suggest you know get back to talking of the Gorshkov, dont want to be accused of diverting the subject! 😀

our P-3Cs and Agostas are on a wishlist? 😀

You need to take a trip out to the Arabian Sea and check out whats going on

Pakdef.info …..wow what a source:D

I dont know in which dream world do u live!?

Hostilities broke out between India and Pakistan on 03 Dec 71. The twilight hours of 03 December turned out to be the dawning a new era for the Indian Navy. On the very night that hostilities commenced, with Pakistan bombing several air fields (03 Dec 1971), IN Ships Rajput and Akshay were leaving Vishakapatnam harbour when they obtained a sonar contact. They fired several depth charges, and proceeded on their mission when there was no further evidence of a submarine’s presence. Thereafter a loud explosion was heard rattling windows panes off the Vishakapatnam beach. The Pakistani submarine Ghazi (a Tench class submarine obtained from the USA in 1964) had come to grief.

http://indiannavy.nic.in/1971.htm
😀
More from Indian Navy…. grow up boy:D

I sent for Lt Cdr Inder Singh, the Commanding Officer of the RAJPUT for detailed briefing; as soon as she completed fuelling she must leave harbour. I had already ordered all navigational aids to be switched off, so greatest care in navigation was necessary. Once clear of the harbour, he must assume that an enemy submarine was in the vicinity. If our deception plan had worked, the enemy would be prowling about looking for VIKRANT. Before clearing the outer harbour, he could drop a few charges at random.

“The RAJPUT sailed before midnight of 3/4 December and, on clearing harbour, proceeded along the narrow channel. Having got clear, the Commanding Officer saw what he thought was a severe disturbance in the water, about half a mile ahead. He rightly assumed that this might be a submarine diving. He closed the spot at speed and dropped at the position two charges. It has been subsequently established that the position where the charges were dropped was so close to the position of the wreck of the GHAZI that some damage to the latter is a very high probability. The RAJPUT, on completion of her mission, proceeded on her course in order to carry out her main mission. A little later, a very loud explosion was heard by the Coast Battery who reported the same to the Maritime Operations Room. The time of this explosion was 0015 hours. The clock recovered from the GHAZI showed that it had stopped functioning at the same time. Several thousand people waiting to hear the Prime Minister’s broadcast to the nation also heard the explosion and many came out thinking that it was an earthquake.

“As per our arrangement with them, some fishermen reported oil patches and some flotsam. The Command Diving Team were rushed to the spot and commenced detailed investigations. The divers established that there was a definite submerged object some distance out seawards, at a depth of 150 feet of water and that it was a probable submarine. Even though there were a number of floating objects picked up, there was nothing to indicate the identity of the submarine. Everything had American markings. I told the Chief of the Naval Staff that personally I was convinced that we had bagged the GHAZI. He wanted “ocular proof” that it was the GHAZI, before authorizing the announcement. This was easier said than done. Diving operations were extremely difficult and highly hazardous as the sea was very choppy and the divers were operating some 150 feet below. The boat I had was not a suitable one to conduct such operations. By Sunday 5 December we were able to establish from the silhouette and other characteristics that the submarine was in fact the GHAZI. But there was no means of ingress into the submarine as all entry hatches from the conning tower aft were tightly screwed down from the inside.

http://www.indiannavy.nic.in/Tr2Trmph/chapters/9_naval_ops_enc.htm

Ha ha, even the IN themselves dont claim Ghazi which suffered an explosion after laying mines during the war, please dont claim kills that were not yours, its disrespectful for both the IN and the PN

No one doubts the professionalism on the IN, but lets not pretend the PN are the walk over you make them out to be

… or Rather the Ghazi crew decided to just let it sink coz they just wanted to see how deep it can go :rolleyes: Nice Dream ! You cannot just live in reality. Cant You!?

Any no doubts Pak Navy is modernising itself so is IN now dont post that wisshlist crap of urs here too!!:p

The crew of the INS Kukri would disagree with you on the latter count……..

😀
http://orbat.com/site/cimh/navy/navy_1971_kills.html
PN Ghazi,
PNS Khaibar.
PNS Shahjahan

….etc etc..

Now PN sure does agree don’t they!?

let me not argue with you on what colonials have and what we don’t have.

About your piddly navy being (as usal) better than us. 😀

I will just tell you an anecdote. It happened I had a small bumper damage (in an arabic country) when an arab’s car sewered and hit mine. He being a gentleman (insurance on his car got over the other day and he was on his way to pay it. 😉 ) offered to repair my cars bender. As it was getting repaired, we exchanged pleasentries and he happened to be a top official of his countries navy. So obviously we got talking. He told me his basic training was in Pakistani navy and advanced in Indian and French navy.
I asked him why not advanced training in PN. Because advanced stuff is with IN. So i asked him about the french training. He said they are good but the instructers are not as eager to give out more than required. IN trainers were willing to give some extra info, hence more sailors are being sent to India. I asked him physical standards. He tells me its same everywhere, in particular to some types IN training, its in human.

i asked him about professionalism. He said its difficult to describe. He said he wouldn’t like to get into that. ( he was a professional you see.). But he complimented IN by saying “they are very nice people, i hope that satisfies you.” :rolleyes:

Slowly he drifted to other things. he was talking about getting close to an Indian ship while he was on a PN frigate. He said he was surprised that the Indian Captain (he named him) sent a “greetings” message to the PN captain. That was promptly responded by PN captain. Another thing he said that he wished his countries navy was the size and quality that IN posses. I asked IN vs PN… he started laughing. he said thats the problem with you Indians. He says PN is too small for IN. Its no match. Why do you even want me to give a match up? (well i was in discomfort). So i changed the topic.

So try not to put your “you must be good, but don’t under estimate us kind of talk”. Get on with your life. I hope this is the best way to put it to you.

Vaiar,

You got to read a lot.

Brute
Nice to hear about your tale and your “friend”. I dont do insults, and I certainly dont want to get into the stories I have heard about the IN from amongstn others, Royal Navy personnel, as if I wrote down what they told me about the IN and how they look after former RN ships, I would be accused of flaming.

I do not need to recount other peoples opinions of how good the PN are, that is not the purpose of this thread.

You asked Viar to do some reading, I suggest you do some of your own and look at PNs MPA and Submarine equipment, its order for new ships .

At the same time you can go to the PN website and find out about the 22 other nations who recieve training from us.

No doubt about it that the IN is a professional and competent force, we just have to look at the splendid job they are doing in providing disaster relief.
Also they are and always will be bigger then the PN, does not take a genious to figure that out.

But please, dont think for once second think that PN is not ahead of the IN in several areas or is less competent. The crew of the INS Kukri would disagree with you on the latter count……..

Easy, no one is attacking India, but if your think “Gorshkov will deter your ……..cent MPA fleet to do that….and right now, even my “piddly navy” is ahead of you in the MPA and submarine areas…..

let me not argue with you on what colonials have and what we don’t have.

About your piddly navy being (as usal) better than us. 😀

I will just tell you an anecdote. It happened I had a small bumper damage (in an arabic country) when an arab’s car sewered and hit mine. He being a gentleman (insurance on his car got over the other day and he was on his way to pay it. 😉 ) offered to repair my cars bender. As it was getting repaired, we exchanged pleasentries and he happened to be a top official of his countries navy. So obviously we got talking. He told me his basic training was in Pakistani navy and advanced in Indian and French navy.
I asked him why not advanced training in PN. Because advanced stuff is with IN. So i asked him about the french training. He said they are good but the instructers are not as eager to give out more than required. IN trainers were willing to give some extra info, hence more sailors are being sent to India. I asked him physical standards. He tells me its same everywhere, in particular to some types IN training, its in human.

i asked him about professionalism. He said its difficult to describe. He said he wouldn’t like to get into that. ( he was a professional you see.). But he complimented IN by saying “they are very nice people, i hope that satisfies you.” :rolleyes:

Slowly he drifted to other things. he was talking about getting close to an Indian ship while he was on a PN frigate. He said he was surprised that the Indian Captain (he named him) sent a “greetings” message to the PN captain. That was promptly responded by PN captain. Another thing he said that he wished his countries navy was the size and quality that IN posses. I asked IN vs PN… he started laughing. he said thats the problem with you Indians. He says PN is too small for IN. Its no match. Why do you even want me to give a match up? (well i was in discomfort). So i changed the topic.

So try not to put your “you must be good, but don’t under estimate us kind of talk”. Get on with your life. I hope this is the best way to put it to you.

Vaiar,

You got to read a lot.

This is laughable!!!! Last year we dutch people could hear on the news and read in the papers that India did no longer want to receive development aid and help coming from the Netherlands and other small developed countries simply because India felt that we were too small. Receiving aid from small countries could damage India’s national prestige as India feels it is becoming so superduper important that it has to behave itself arrogantly versus small nations, even if they are good willing. On the contrary, bigger countries like France could continue to donate to the benefit of the many deperately poor people in your country.

I think its good that India is shunning aid slowly and becoming Self reliant aint it!?. Or ur France example maybe those small developed countries cannot give/ support aid to larger projects as France can do.

When you had your independence and you finished your little butcher, you went the way of socialism and the mistaken policies of import substitution and heavy protectionism. You simply chose the wrong side during the cold war. Furthermore, my country emerged ravished and heavily traumatised from the WW2 at that time and was fighting a colonial war in the Dutch East Indies; so we had other things to spend our money on. In those days we even received development aid under the Marshall plan.

:rolleyes: When we(Indian subcontinent) got independence we were a ruined, completely famished nation.WW2??? Do u know Indian Subcontinent contributed more than double in terms of Manpower what euorope contributed
as whole in WW2??? Mistaken policies!? Ehh :rolleyes: !? Why we needed Protectionisim!?No according to Vaiar we should have amde our economy open
and become totally dependent on westren nations for every grain!!
Chosen wrong side!? Have u ever heard a movement called NAM!?
Just research about it!? Oh I see ur reffering to closing of ties betwen India & USSR in late 1960’s. Do u even know that this happened when westren nations just decided to turn blind eye to when China invaded India. India went to west to ask for help but did they come????? Westren people shouted on top of voice when India detonated nukes… trying to pose as white doves. But where were you people when India who had already declared its intention as Non voilence(read cutting of military) as prinicipal was Invaded by China!?
Before that India enjoyed more close ties with west. I was this hypocracy that disappointed India and Glad corrected its policy!! If today India has some industrial base or is making growth its due to farsightedness that they showed initial socialisim/ protectionisim policy.

We only retain several islands in the Caribbean that chose to stay with us, since they are so small that they cannot build a viable economy or state.

Trying to Defend colinialism….No how did then *Independence* of small East Timor becomes justified ….ehh!??

Since you took these as example and that the Navy believes that is part of the problem. The airforce could cover these areas easily, but most likelt due to interservice rivalry the Navy wants to have their own planes to do it.

So having Aircraft carrier is interservices rivalry!?? Tommorow you might say why have naval unit at all Give it taht job to airforce too ! If so tell this to USA ,France etc who maintains so!

Well, why don’t you choose to build a decent carrier right away like Jonesy also mentioned. .

Plz read about ADS progarmme

Thanks

About spending billions of dollors. Its Our money, you need to advice us based on your opinions? Where were you when we needed Billions of $ to feed the poor population when we got our freedom. On the contrary Gorshkov will deter your colonial tempremants.

This is laughable!!!! Last year we dutch people could hear on the news and read in the papers that India did no longer want to receive development aid and help coming from the Netherlands and other small developed countries simply because India felt that we were too small. Receiving aid from small countries could damage India’s national prestige as India feels it is becoming so superduper important that it has to behave itself arrogantly versus small nations, even if they are good willing. On the contrary, bigger countries like France could continue to donate to the benefit of the many deperately poor people in your country.
When you had your independence and you finished your little butcher, you went the way of socialism and the mistaken policies of import substitution and heavy protectionism. You simply chose the wrong side during the cold war. Furthermore, my country emerged ravished and heavily traumatised from the WW2 at that time and was fighting a colonial war in the Dutch East Indies; so we had other things to spend our money on. In those days we even received development aid under the Marshall plan.
The Netherlands has long abandoned its colonial ideology. We only retain several islands in the Caribbean that chose to stay with us, since they are so small that they cannot build a viable economy or state.

Why just take Maldives and Banglades. It can happen aywhere in IOR. And the Navy believes it Gorshy can handle it

Since you took these as example and that the Navy believes that is part of the problem. The airforce could cover these areas easily, but most likelt due to interservice rivalry the Navy wants to have their own planes to do it.

Its anybody’s guess Gorshkov alone won’t meet the defence needs. It takes a genious to tell that? IN needs 3 carriers. So tell me how do we suddenly build a 3 carrier force over night? It has to be in steps and Gorshy is first.

Well, why don’t you choose to build a decent carrier right away like Jonesy also mentioned. The AG has to be totally rebuild and will still remain rather inadequate. In the mean time you could have started designing your own carrier or subsequently start building it. Why would you want to have a crappy carrier instead of none for some time (although it is rather speculative to postulate that the AG would be ready in shorter time than a small new build carrier). With your growing fleet of SU-30MKIs you could have easily covered the likely areas of operation of the old carriers in the mean time.

Coming all the way to the Northsea then?

Scaring the …….iewed from India. Same story with Bangladesh. Rather peculiar to spend billions on a carrier just for being a good will ambassador, there are more cost-effective means to do that.

The piddly navy was for the PAF Fan who claims that Gorshkov is for scaring them.

You don’t seem to get it, do you? Symbol of nationalism? We hade two aircraft carriers at some part of time. So whom did we scare? Just because one poster expresses his opinion, you tend to bind the whole IN policy with it? Its your doubt versus the the strategy of the whole Indian Navy. Its anybody’s guess Gorshkov alone won’t meet the defence needs. It takes a genious to tell that? IN needs 3 carriers. So tell me how do we suddenly build a 3 carrier force over night? It has to be in steps and Gorshy is first.

Why just take Maldives and Banglades. It can happen aywhere in IOR. And the Navy believes it Gorshy can handle it.

About spending billions of dollors. Its Our money, you need to advice us based on your opinions? Where were you when we needed Billions of $ to feed the poor population when we got our freedom. On the contrary Gorshkov will deter your colonial tempremants.

I have been following this thread with much interest. People very upset with each other, yes. So, I take the risk of making pro Indian crowd mad at me by saying my 2 kronors. Here it is:

Sale of Gorshkov is tied to transer of nuclear submarines. Why did you people not make this connection earlier?
The Russkies are taking the Indians to the cleaners. Not just on Gorshkov but on many other deals. The days of friendship prices are over, my Indian friends.
Corruption and greed is very endemic in most, if not all, militaries. Indian military is no different. Too many people stand to gain from buying Gorshkov as some poeple have mentioned.
I read somewhere that the officer who refused to accept the poor performance of the Shtil SAM on the Talvar 1134.6 project FFG died a mysterious death in a hit and run accident. the man probably died for doing his job annd standing by his morals. and for pissing off higher ups with vested interests. or for pissing off the Russians. My point is that in military organizations or large corporations, people may not always be free to realy say the truth in situations like the Gorshkov.

poeple from Russia say that Gorshkov is in bad shape. Not Sevmash or rosboron but interested observers.

Who said india isn’t a corrupt place? All countires suffer from corruption. One does not have to live in India to understand this problem.

The Indian Navy does not have a very good record of proper maintenance of their ships. i.e follow correct procedures and regular maintenance intervals. The Indian way of doing things is reflected in the persons who make up the military. That is why it is a good thing for the Indians that the Pakistanis suffer from the same problem. Maybe this attitude is slowly changing.
Many Indian naval ships tend to be in really bad shape by the end of their lives. Of course, USN also has this problem. All navies do. But some more than others. Russians are horrible at maintaining ships because there is no money.

As some of you have said, there are several carriers that Indians could have bought cheaply.

It is a small miracle that Viraat still sails under her own power. Operational levels are low. How many times has she gone in for major refits since 1999/ 2000?

Why did they not start building their own carrier – maybe because of political and business interests. and a lot of indecision as to what they wanted. indecision costs money. Anyone that thinks ADS will be completed on time is hallucinating, yes. There is always a 1% chance i am wrong. keel laying has fallen from 2003 to 2005. Nothing yet.

You cannot always take what senior officers say at face value. Especially when it comes to political matters. The Indian Naval chief claims that the Navy is in no way involved with the DRDO in building the nuclear submarine. How many of you seriously believe that? That is a bunch of crock!

But we all wait and see what happens in the years to come.

Combat Aircraft magazine as an article by Jon lake on the Mig29K.

They’d definitely have to stretch the hangar to fit 24 aircraft aboard in anything other than a ferrying capacity!. 16 will demand the use of a permanent deck park which can be kind of harsh on airframes. Going from the listed diagrams 20 fixed wings could mean the deletion of the ASW chopper component to get them aboard and operational. Not necessarily a wise option.

The issue of maintainance is a huge one in regard the MiG-29. True believers are confidently predicting a vast improvement for the 29K over its land-lubbing bretheren because of its newer motors. I hoestly hope theyre right otherwise the low sortie rate of the carrier won’t be much a problem as they’ll have, with a small airgroup, precious few sorties to generate!.

Jonesy, the 16 29Ks are an initial order, the number I have heard of is around 22-24 Ks on Gorshkov. There is also an option in the contract for 40 more Ks which will obviously see life on the ADS as well.

But overall I agree with you, without an AEW the Gorshkov will have a relatively limited ability combined with low sortie rates.

I wonder if anyone has the number of maintainance hours for the MiG-29K or similar aircraft for every hour flown.

Prévisions (2010) :
-25-30 Rafale M/N (F2-F3).
-4 Super-Étendard Modernisés (Standard 4/5).
-2 E-2C Hawkeye.
-2 AS-365F Dauphin “Pedro”.
-1/2 NH-90 NFH.
-2 AS-532 Cougar Mk2+ (détachement Armée de l’Air).

Yes, the capacity of Charles de Gaulle conforms well with the one-aircraft-per-kiloton rule. The previous Clemenceau class was even better and even carried more aircraft than the mighty HMS Ark Royal by the late seventies.

By the way, the 28th Rafale M will be delivered in 2008 IIRC.

Power projection in carrier terms is dependant on three major factors:

1) Size of airgroup
2) Battlespace management/situational awareness capability
3) C3I ability

The reasons behind this are very basic.

1)The airgroup needs to be able to support at least one, preferably two, CAP pairs on patrol. Giving a MiG-29K an arbitrary 2hr endurance on the 75nm ring that means, for two pairs, 12 aircraft assigned solely to fleet defence over a 6hr window. For a 16 plane airgroup that leaves 4 airframes available for deck alert, strike and ASuW taskings. Even a fast turnaround on the first CAP pairs will do little to mitigate this.

I’ve just worked out a likely flying programme on the strength of a 16 plane airgroup. I’ve calculated an 8hr period on station split into 4x2hr timeslots. Only the first and third timeslots can generate 4 aircraft for strike missions and 2 would be more sensible in both cases to ease the load on the matelots in the second and fourth timeslots as both intervals could see 10 MiG-29’s in the hangar undergoing turnaround. In that ‘modest’ hangar, with rotary airframes thrown in for good measure, servicing 10 twin-engined supersonic fighters in two hours might be a bit of a stretch!. In timeslots two and four the carrier is at max stretch to cover 2 CAP stations and keep 2 aircraft on Deck Alert.

This is with a full airwing that hasnt suffered any attrition too!. Numbers really do count and 16 is too few.

2) I’ve banged on about E-2’s so often that even such an erudite and composed gentleman as Harry expressed a desire to kill me. I wont do this any more for the obvious reason therefore!. Suffice it to say that chopper AEW is insufficient for adequate fleet defence and woefully incapable of providing coverage for strike missions far overland. With a fragile airgroup intolerant of losses it will be a big gamble utilising the range advantage of a MiG-29K without friendly radar coverage!.

Situational awareness isnt limited to surface and aerial threats though. Carriers are the highest value targets and I can think of no service that wouldnt willingly sacrifice an SSK to get scope shots of an enemy carrier slipping beneath the waves. Choppers with decent dipping sets are the best way to keep such nastiness at arms length, unfortunately, with a limited airgroup Gorshkov is not going to be carrying many. Lots of escorts with towed arrays and choppers required.

3)Command, Communication, Control and Intelligence could be bundled with the above under the ISTAR banner, but, its important to differentiate simple AEW from AWACS/ASAC capability. The former is vital for ownship defence, but, the latter is vital in strike coordination and standoff air operations. They mark a significant difference between a sea control ship and a real power projection platform.

In all of those criteria Gorshkov is an inadequate platform. The range of its fighters, their manoeverability, their sensor fit or combat persistence makes not one jot of difference. Neither does it make any difference whether Gorshkov is a more impressive platform than a STOVL Ocean type platform. The real long term future of IN aviation should be the ADS vessels NOT whatever is used to augment the Viraat in the coming years. After the IN withdraws its last SHAR a modern CVL could fill an ASW or LPH role and be a meaningful contributor to the IN fleet. Whats Gorshkov going to leave as a legacy in the fleet?.

If one goes by the thumb rule it should be 1 A/C per thousand tons , since Groshkov displaces 45000 tons , it should be able to accomodate 45 aircraft , since a fine balance ha to be maintained between A/C and ASW helo as well as AEW Hello , 22-25 Migs with 15-18 Helo should be the air component of Groshkov

That rule only applies to a purpose designed carrier not this vessel. An airgroup of 16 MiG-29’s, 4 Ka-31’s and 4 ASW choppers is, seemingly, representative of whats achievable.

Here’s a similar diagram from the CdG:

To compare with the unknown loadout of the AG, the load out of the CdG (will) consist(s) off:

Actuellement :
-14 Super-Étendard Modernisés.
-10 Rafale M F1 [10].
-2 E-2C Hawkeye.
-2 AS-365F Dauphin “Pedro”.
-2 SA-321G Super-Frelon.
-2 SA-330 Puma “RESCO” (détachement Armée de l’Air).

Prévisions (2010) :
-25-30 Rafale M/N (F2-F3).
-4 Super-Étendard Modernisés (Standard 4/5).
-2 E-2C Hawkeye.
-2 AS-365F Dauphin “Pedro”.
-1/2 NH-90 NFH.
-2 AS-532 Cougar Mk2+ (détachement Armée de l’Air).

As we all know, this ship wasn’t without troubles either. A summary can be read here if you’re proficient in French or able to withstand babelfish:

http://frenchnavy.free.fr/ships/aircraft-carrier/charles-de-gaulle/deboires.htm

Sameer,

Dont take this the wrong way but its the contradiction you’ve just so clearly demonstrated that makes me doubt what you and Nitin are saying.

You’ve just accepted that the ship, even after a 70% refit and ignoring the risks of that kind of job going south on you, is not going to be a particularly effective or efficient method of operating aircraft at sea. DESPITE this you want me to believe that a service as professional as the Indian Navy is happy about the prospect of inducting it?.

You dont quite realise that its precisely my belief in the basic competence of the IN (with its Royal Navy parentage of course!) that leads me to the conclusion that this really isnt their no.1 choice. They ARE too smart for such an unfathomable decision to be laid at their door.

Oh how often do we have to hear this bull!. They are spending $700 million putting the ship back into operational condition IF it can be done to time and to budget. As I’ve said earlier this is extraordinarily unlikely. IF the IN needed a carrier as ASAP as you state they’d have been much better off ordering a new build STOVL carrier back in 2002-03. It’d probably be in the final stages of fitting out or on its sea trials now for a service entry early next year and to give you some context HMS Ocean was built for $263 million.

A design like Ocean optimised for STOVL fixed wing ops would be on the order of $350 to $400 million brand new. Ex FAA Sea Harrier FA.2’s would be available to augment the FRS51’s and hey presto there is the pressure off Viraat in 2006 at the latest – two full years before Gorshkov could be ready.

That is of course IF Invincible was not made available in 2006.

If there is one thing the IN had it was choice and they’ve taken the one that, in the long term, will give them the least return at the highest possible whole-life costs. This, you are still proposing, is the determination of a professional uniformed service like the IN is it?. Dont believe it for a second.

Probably the most sensible thing I’ve read all morning, unfortunately people only listen to what they want to hear.