'BOMBER CREW'- third sortie, TONIGHT!

Whoops. Seems I’m a little bit off – I’ll revise it when I get a chance.

Great diagrams, Eddie.
There’s also a description of the manoeuvre and associated speeds etc. on this RCAF 429 sqn. research web site.

Check here:
http://www.429sqn.ca/acmem.htm

Regards,

Paul

Funny, the way Dave describes the manoeuvre is exactly how I envisaged it as well – although Eddie’s version was probably a lot easier to pull off in practice.

You’re welcome!

I wouldn’t claim it as definitively accurate – I believe it is generally correct, but if anyone has any corrections on how the pattern should be flown, I’ll happily incorporate them.

Thanks Eddie,
I’ve never seen it shown so clearly before. Good man,
Cheers!

Yeah – you thought the tied aerobatics from the 30s Hendon displays were spectacular 😛

that’s easy, the instructor is flying as leader and the trail formation follows:”whip effect” ehehehhe

Cheers

Alex

Great diagrams. Thanks.

Just one question, why are all the Lancasters tied together? 😀

Only kidding!!

Yes, the aircraft wouldn’t be inverted, but I believe it could get quite uncomfortable because of the G-forces at the bottom of the dive, and the weightlessness at the top!

Yep, so what you’re saying is the plane did not turn right over upside down and over the other side, where they way I understood it these two pilots did turn the plane over on occasions when needed. I might talk to Gordon again and totally clarify it when I get a chance.

I did read once in Flypast or Aeroplane Monthly about a NZ pilot on an RAF squadron who enjoyed looping his Lancaster after every raid on the way home, much to hi crew’s dislike. He had to put both feet on the dashboard to pull her out of the dive and up into the loop! Yikes. Could be the same pilot perhaps?

Well, Dave – the descriptions you make are not the “official” version of the corkscrew – I agree that many aerobatic techniques were used (Lt Peter Spoden said that a Lanc looped as an evasive manouvre when he attacked it).

The official version of a “corkscrew port” involved a steep banking dive to port, followed by a steep climb to stbd, followed by a steep dive to port, to return onto the original heading – so the “corkscrew” was along the line of flight. I’ll have a better version of the diagram in a couple of minutes (3ds Max is great for this stuff!).

Eddie, I’m not arguing, just not fully comprehending. The diagram you’ve very skilfully drawn looks like a perfectly acceptable defensive method. But as you indicate that sometimes it was done all the way to the target, I assume you mean it’s like weaving, in case something happened.

What I mean is something different.

A very famous local Lancaster pilot, Roy Calvert DFC and Two Bars, MID, who is now deceased apparently when attacked went into a corkscrew dive. He perfected this manouvre and then went on to teach others in the squadron, and it apparently saved his bacon on many occasions during his 59 ops.Though I never met him personally I have read some of his writings, and his wife recalls all his stories as if they were her own. I first heard of this spiralling corkscrew dive from her, and she indicated the motion he’d always told her by showing me with her hand, a spiralling downward motion, like a coil spring – or realistically a diving barrel roll I guess. Apparently it disoriented the fighters, or they assumed you were going to crash, so they’d usually break off.

I was of course sceptical about it at first (though I knew you could roll and even loop a Lancaster). Then I heard it first hand from a pilot.

I met this other pilot, Gordon Easter, who flew Stirlings. He mentioned the defensive corkscrew so I asked him to demonstrate and he showed a spiral with his hand too. He said that you could really throw the Stirling about when you needed to. It seems incredible, but I believe it. Maybe it just wasn’t in the RAF handbook, but it apparently worked because Roy and Gordon came home.

One clear advantage of this manouvre is that it doesn’t involve “displacing” the aircraft too much – you don’t cross the bomber stream to a huge extent. The advantage is obviously that the risk of collision is substantially reduced.

Why can the corkscrew manouvre not be described as a spiral dive? The way that veteran pilots have described the manouvre to me, it is pretty much just that.

The corkscrew was a manouvre designed to make the aircraft rapidly change direction, so the closing speed and angle between the defending bomber and attacking fighter would be constantly changing, and make aiming far more difficult.

It could be done in a tight pattern, as shown here, or some pilots would very gently corkscrew all the way to the target to provide the gunners with a clear view all around and under the aircraft. Apologies for the poor quality of the diagram – I’ll do more views if it’s not clear enough.

IIRC one of the first shooting incidents in the Battle of Britain was a squadron of Spuitfires attacking a squadron of Hurricanes. The difference being that we try to learn from our mistakes instead of repeating them ad nauseam.

Its a cracking series, at the end of the day it may not be totally accurate but if it gets the yoof of today interested then it must be a good thing.

Sept 9th 1939 ‘The Battle of Barking Creek’ ….yep… these things (still) happen.
Cracking series though, agreed regarding the minor footage probelms etc, but then it’s only “us”, as the enthusiasts that we are, that would notice these things. Shame though, you would have thought they would have tried to put it right in the editing, even my lad Joe (11) laughed at the 60 ton B17 🙁

Why can the corkscrew manouvre not be described as a spiral dive? The way that veteran pilots have described the manouvre to me, it is pretty much just that.

Lets not get into a bunfight over friendly fire incidents – no-one’s going to change their opinion on it.

IIRC one of the first shooting incidents in the Battle of Britain was a squadron of Spuitfires attacking a squadron of Hurricanes. The difference being that we try to learn from our mistakes instead of repeating them ad nauseam.

Its a cracking series, at the end of the day it may not be totally accurate but if it gets the yoof of today interested then it must be a good thing.

thanks archieraf 🙂
i remember seeing the pics on Flypast done with Sally B, did they change the ship at the last moment?

cheers

Alex

Spitfire Ace on US TV & friendly fire

I hapened across “Spitfire Ace” today in the USA on The History Channel. They showed all four episodes back to back and will repeat them tonight. I only caught the last three (the good bits with Ms Grace’s Spitfire) and I was impressed. I’m glad the series made it to North America. It’s a great history lesson for the masses.

PS…Those of you who told me rather emphatically on the GD Forum that the RAF NEVER had “friendly fire” incidents….(incuding one fellow poster who made a very bad taste joke about Canadians getting killed in Iraq) did you you catch the historian (Dr Stephen Bungay) who said at least 36 FF incidents in the BoB alone? One thing school and the study of history (or journalism) taught me is you NEVER say never.
I’m not pointing fingers at the RAF, rather, I’m just pointing out that in any war there are going to be tragic mix-ups. Even the good guys make mistakes.