http://europe.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/central/07/02/afghanistan.bomb…
Probe into Afghan wedding bomb
July 2, 2002 Posted: 1019 GMT
Many children were injured after the bombs struck
From CNN correspondent Nic Robertson and CNN producer Jon Raedler
BAGRAM AIR BASE, Afghanistan (CNN) — Afghan and coalition officials have begun probing why U.S. planes bombed a central Afghan village, killing scores of people attending a wedding party.
Afghan and American officials headed to the village in this central Asian country on Tuesday to begin an investigation into the “errant” bombing of a wedding party by a U.S. plane that killed at least 20 people and wounded more than 60.
While it is unclear exactly what happened, the Afghan government says that wedding guests were firing up into the air in celebration, a common ritual in the rural part of the country, when the bombs fell, killing mostly women and children.
U.S. officials have said that military planes were on missions in the area at the time and their forces returned fire after coming under attack from the ground. They have ruled out that wedding guests firing weapons into the air in celebration provoked the attack.
AUDIO
Nic Robertson reports on the early stages of the investigation
3.9 mb / 3 mins 6 secs
WAV sound
“Normally when you think of celebratory fire … it’s random, it’s sprayed, it’s not directed at a specific target,” said Col. Roger King.
“In this instance, the people on board the aircraft felt that the weapons were tracking them and were making a sustained effort to engage them.”
Special Forces
The U.S. Central Command, which is responsible for U.S. military operations in Afghanistan, said it was also sending a fact-finding team to determine what happened in Uruzgan province, about 175 miles southwest of Kabul, the capital.
The bombing came in the midst of a U.S. Special Forces operation in the southern Afghan province of Uruzgan against Taliban and al Qaeda positions.
Between 100-200 Special Forces were taking part in an operation around Tarin Kowt in Uruzgan and called in close air support — B-52 and AC-130 aircraft — when they were fired on, King said.
The area had a reputation for being hostile after past encounters involving coalition forces, King said, and the operation had pre-targeted an anti-aircraft facility.
Special forces were also exploring Tarin Kowt for weapons, documents or enemy personnel.
An Air Force B-52 dropped seven 2,000-pound bombs on known Taliban and al Qaeda cave complexes, but one of those bombs malfunctioned, a Pentagon official said Monday.
Another Pentagon official described it as an “errant bomb.”
The type of bombs used were GBU-31 precision-guided munitions.
Wounded
Shah Wali talks with doctors about the injuries his wife suffered in the bombing.
Many of the wounded in the southern Afghan province of Uruzgan were taken to a nearby hospital in Kandahar.
Among those injured was a 7-year-old girl and a 6-year-old girl, both of whom were said to be the only surviving members of their families.
A spokesman offered deepest sympathies on behalf of the U.S. government.
A fact-finding team made up of representatives from the American military, the Afghan government, the U.S. Embassy and news media would “conduct an immediate on-site assessment of the incident.”
The six ministerial-level officials from the Afghan government include:
— Mohammad Arif Nurzia, Minister for Borders.
— Ghulam Ghous Nassiry, a Deputy Minister of the Interior Department.
— Gen. Abdul Qhader, First Deputy of the Intelligence Department.
— John Mohammad Khan, Governor of Uruzgan Province.
Some of the elders of Uruzgan province will also accompany them.
By: Arabella-Cox - 12th July 2002 at 02:38
RE: What did hoppen at the wed
sorry, thought you meant official US position being in blaming the locals, which is clearly not the case. Sauron can say what ever he wants or belives but i don’t think he said it as a fact. He was just offering his opinion of what might’ve happened.
By: Arabella-Cox - 10th July 2002 at 08:49
RE: What did hoppen at the wed
“aren’t aiming errors a type of error? Aren’t targetting errors another type of error? I thought that was pretty obvious in what i meant and i don’t have to spell out every single letter. “
As you put it it was a contradiction and therefore had to be wrong.
An apple is a type of fruit but any piece of fruit like a banana is not necessarily an apple.
“As to transfering blame to the victims, who’s doing that?”
Sauron : Post number 6 on this thread…
” Perhaps if every Afghan male over the age of 10 didn’t carry a weapon and spent less time shooting in the air to satisfy their male egos, they would reduce this type of tragedy. “
Sauron : Post number 21 on this thread…
“There is a possiblity that people may have been killed in some sort of scrap between locals and the US is being made the bad guy. “
Sauron : Post number 24 on this thread…
“The weddng bombing is looking more like a put up job every day. Little evidence at the sight that a large number were killed. Wild variations in the mumbers killed (40-150)You would think that even the Afghan authorities would be able to come up with an approximate number. Bodies all apparently buried. No reports of folks still looking or searching in the rubble. It will be interesting to see what the final story is.”
“Your critical qualities have worsen recently into rather cheap shots”
Ahh cheap shots… my favourite… especially single malt whisky… }>
By: Arabella-Cox - 9th July 2002 at 14:24
RE: What did hoppen at the wed
aren’t aiming errors a type of error? Aren’t targetting errors another type of error? I thought that was pretty obvious in what i meant and i don’t have to spell out every single letter. As to transfering blame to the victims, who’s doing that? Please don’t add New Zealand urban myth to reality. Much ado about nothing Garry. Your critical qualities have worsen recently into rather cheap shots }>
By: Arabella-Cox - 9th July 2002 at 06:57
RE: What did hoppen at the wedding?
“with all the precision guidedness to the infinity will not prevent errors, that’s why they’re called errors. One thing for sure is that precision weapons cuts down errors. “
So what you are trying to say is first of all is that precision guidance systems don’t prevent errors.
Then you say Precision weapons cut down errors.
You shouldn’t post when you’ve been drinking… }>
Precision guidance should reduce aiming errors.
Precision guidance doesn’t effect targetting errors.
The problem in this case was that the wrong target was engaged.
When US aircraft bombed some British APCs in Desert Storm the first report said that it was at night in the heat of battle and during a sand storm. When video footage taken just before the incident was released the world saw that the sky was clear, it was a nice sunny day and some of the British troops were sitting on top of their vehicles while others were wandering around.
Definitely no sand storm, definitely not night, definitely not in the heat of battle.
Blatent lies to shift blame to the victim.
Perhaps there are too many politicians in the US Heirarchy whose first reaction is not to defend the truth or any of the ideals of the US but to cover a$$.
Of course there was not too much said about it by the British… they still had a war to fight.
The Afghans think the war there is finally over. They have never much liked foreigners. (And with very good reason.)
They could care less about al quada or the Taleban.
The latter will never be a real threat to afghanistan as long as Pakistan and the US refrain from arming and equipping them in the future which seems unlikely to me and probably to the afghans too.
They have a country to rebuild.
The Taleban didn’t rebuild much while they were in power so there is all the stuff the Soviets blew up as well as the stuff the Taleban blew up to get it. (Of course unlike the Taleban and the US the Soviets at least built stuff too… can’t have too many statues of Lenin you know… 🙂 )
By: Arabella-Cox - 9th July 2002 at 05:29
RE: What did hoppen at the wedding?
with all the precision guidedness to the infinity will not prevent errors, that’s why they’re called errors. One thing for sure is that precision weapons cuts down errors. No one cry a river when tens if not hundreds of thousands died when the Northern Alliance and the Talibans were going at it commiting all sort of human rights abuses (these came out of Afghans themselves, so don’t say only the US said so), or earlier in faction infightings, but when the US is there to take out terrorists people would bitch about it. Now, if you were Afghans, i totally agree about holding those responsible if any wrong doings were done, it is their right. But, if you are people like some here sitting in their homes thousands of miles away when thousands of innocents are dying and they don’t let a fart about it, then when US is involved they would cry a river that pretty much says it all doesn’t it? Since when did you really cared about people in far off lands dying? Certainly in the last decade over 2 million died in North Korea. Garry would blame the US when in fact US supplied more food to them than anybody else where they decided themselve to be secluded from the rest of the world (much like the Berlin walls were built to keep themselves in as stated correctly by someone here, Sauron?). But, if Korean war erupts again and US is able to win the war, but had to seek out small factions of remainders and accidentally bombed a village you sure bet the same people would cry a river about it. Where were you the last ten years? Criticisms i understand, but try to be a bit more objective, or people in the US have a really good reason to believe what we currently believe about most of you guys(as shown in PII’s attitude against a lot of you guys, if you are understanding then you’ll reason that you can’t blame him totally either, instead of the usual ridicules). And who can blame us? You talk about your perspectives, but seems like you don’t give a rats ass about American perspectives. We’re accused of arrogance, but you seemingly don’t care about what we sincerely think also. Much like the Tribunal, where European leaders fully understand American concerns but disagree in seriousness. But, you have people here talking about it’s because the US wants to stay above international laws as the reason. Leaders are leaders and commoners are commoners.
By: Arabella-Cox - 8th July 2002 at 02:22
RE: What did hoppen at the wedding?
“I take it that the Taliban aren’t dead then? “
Nahh, they’ll just hide from a larger more powerful force and wait.
Just like the Afghans did with the Russians and the British.
To have stood up and fought would have made them targets for airpower… which is never a good idea.
By: ink - 6th July 2002 at 12:24
RE: What did hoppen at the wedding?
I take it that the Taliban aren’t dead then? If US combat aircraft, helicopters and ground forces are still running around the country shooting at everyone with an AK surely that means the Taliban are still around. In fact, if they suspect that the Taliban are setting up anti-aircraft bases etc they must still be around in some strength. Weren’t we reliably informed that the war was over months ago?
By: Arabella-Cox - 6th July 2002 at 06:00
RE: What did hoppen at the wedding?
geez… talk about blaming the victims…
Perhaps the afghans don’t want to show the Americans where the graves are because they know if they do the americans will want to dig up the bodies to find out how they died. It is Afghan custom to bury the dead within 24 hrs of death… how do you think this custom views digging up the dead long after that time?
But not lets just assume it is because your allies hate you because you are the US and we all hate the US don’t we?
By: Sauron - 5th July 2002 at 20:32
RE: What did hoppen at the wedding?
The weddng bombing is looking more like a put up job every day. Little evidence at the sight that a large number were killed. Wild variations in the mumbers killed (40-150)You would think that even the Afghan authorities would be able to come up with an approximate number. Bodies all apparently buried. No reports of folks still looking or searching in the rubble. It will be interesting to see what the final story is.
Regards
By: djcross - 5th July 2002 at 18:06
RE: Investigation continuing
>pgm technology existed since the late vietnam war when
>paveway I took the paul donner (?) bridge
You are correct, but it required a very unreliable buddy lasing technique with a high probability of miss, usually because the laser mark was outside the field of view of the seeker head. There was an incident in IIPGW where a Bucaneer missed the cue for a Paveway dropped from a Tornado at a bridge across the Euphrates. The bomb didn’t guide (poor buddy technique) and hit an apartment building killing about 20 civilians.
It wasn’t until the wide-spread deployment of Pave Tack pods in the early ’80s that self-lasing reliability was realized. Self-lasing is very reliable because the computer tracks time-to-go and fires the laser at the right time, something a human with a stopwatch often screws up (buddy lasing). There are many high quality self-lasing pods available today that should make PGMs the weapons of choice to reduce collateral damage.
By: Rabie - 4th July 2002 at 22:58
RE: Investigation continuing
pgm technology existed since the late vietnam war when paveway I took the paul donner (?) bridge
rabie :9
By: Sauron - 4th July 2002 at 22:47
RE: Investigation continuing
There is a possiblity that people may have been killed in some sort of scrap between locals and the US is being made the bad guy.
Regards
By: ink - 4th July 2002 at 19:00
RE: Investigation continuing
The exaggerated numbers of killed in Kosovo came almost directly from the KLA (UCK/OVK – whatever) via their paymasters in NATO defense ministries. The numbers for killed and wounded in Afghanistan come from The International Red Cross and Red Cresent and from some other NGOs. The fact that they were reported on by the same TV News channels and Newspapers is less relevant (although I concede your point about the general inaccuracy of media reporters).
All those PGMs, all that technology, all the effort they went to, all the spin-doctoring and yet it still seems clear that the US has killed hundreds, nay thousands of civillians in varrious countries around the world. Frankly, I’m not surprised few other countries are prepared to spend all that money, they seem to be doing fine with dumb-bombs and rockets :-).
By: djcross - 4th July 2002 at 17:50
RE: Investigation continuing
>I just saw a CNN news item on this incident. There does seem
>to be people killed and wounded. The piece did suggest
>however, that the investigation team found little evidence
>to support that a large number of people were killed. When
>they asked to see bodies they were told they were all buried
>and when asked to see the graves they were told that the
>couldn’t.
Right, they couldn’t show the graves because the graves don’t exist! This was the same story the peacekeepers were told when they went into Kosovo and Bosnia too. The graves of the “slaughtered masses” couldn’t be found because they don’t exist.
By: Sauron - 4th July 2002 at 04:26
RE: Investigation continuing
I just saw a CNN news item on this incident. There does seem to be people killed and wounded. The piece did suggest however, that the investigation team found little evidence to support that a large number of people were killed. When they asked to see bodies they were told they were all buried and when asked to see the graves they were told that the couldn’t.
Regards
By: Arabella-Cox - 4th July 2002 at 04:23
RE: Wedding gift from United States
“in fact Garry claims that Russians have more varieties, if not better PGMs than the US, then why did they have to level the entire city? “
I have never claimed that the Russians have more types of PGMs. I have said that they have as many types either in service or going through testing.
The City of Grozny was not going to be leveled. That was the first plan… drive in in armoured vehicles to the main square and change the government. Of course we all now know that was a stupid plan and those armoured forces got trashed. The second plan was the plan that worked during WWII… this got them to a stalemate. The second time the Russians took on the Chechens they skipped plan one and did a much better job.
Fighting with ground forces is always going to be bloody… that is why NATO and the US avoided it at all cost during Kosovo. It is also why the coalition forces didn’t enter Iraq during Desert Storm.
Indeed there were many human rights violations in Chechnia but they were dealt with by Russian courts.
By: Arabella-Cox - 4th July 2002 at 00:44
RE: Wedding gift from United States
in fact Garry claims that Russians have more varieties, if not better PGMs than the US, then why did they have to level the entire city? Gents, the world court has just turned political.
By: djcross - 3rd July 2002 at 21:07
RE: Wedding gift from United States
>…However, I
>have read several differnt newspapers and seen a couple of
>interviews on TV news which seem to suggest that the number
>of civies killed in ‘stan is between 2,000 and 5,000.
These would not be the same newspapers that claimed the Serbs were committing genocide in Kosovo and “murdered a hundred thousand” muslims would it? Once the peacekeepers moved in, they found less than 1100 graves. Of those, many were found to be murdered by fellow muslims to settle blood feuds.
>This is of course only in the last 12 years. How many
>civillians have to die in the next 12 before we realise that
>something needs to be changed.
Here at the bomber factory, we went through a revolution in thinking in the early-to-mid 1980s. The F-117 was the first airplane whose warload consisted solely of PGMs. The fact that it could nail it’s targets with monotonous regularity without collateral damage made the USAF and USN take notice. Since then, the primary (almost to the point of exclusivity) warload requirement for all new and newly modified airplanes has been for PGMs. New warheads are not being developed unless they are tied to a PGM. SDB and miniature munitions are being developed to reduce collateral damage due to DBAs from Kosovo and Serbia. Paveway3, JAASM, JDAM, WCMD, JSOW, ATACMS, and other weapons developed and fielded by the US all have tiny CEPs to reduce collateral damage. No other country has taken the reduction in collateral casualties as seriously as the US.
>Finally, Garry is right to mention atrocities commited
>before 1990. Many civillians died in Vietnam, Laos and
>Cambodia but that’s ok, nobody was counting back then so we
>can just forget about it. And then there were the two
>greatest acts of murder mankind has ever seen (short of the
>holocaust – well pointed out Sauron).
Ancient history guys (almost as absurd as those who point to the Crusades as proof of persisting evil intent against muslims)…The technology to hit large numbers of pinpoint targets did not exist before the 1980s. If the US had the genocidal tendancies you claim in your flights of fantasy, the USAF would be doing Arc Lights through the center of major cities instead of using PGMs. Some countries have PGM capability but still choose to use the old school method of widespread destruction (Does Grosny ring a bell)?
Facts are not as interesting as the voices in your head.
By: ink - 3rd July 2002 at 17:06
RE: Wedding gift from United States
Ok, I didn’t want to be drawn on this but what can I say, I’m weak.
Firstly, I have read very little about what is happening in Afghanistan as there seems to be quite an effective media-block on almost all military operations. However, I have read several differnt newspapers and seen a couple of interviews on TV news which seem to suggest that the number of civies killed in ‘stan is between 2,000 and 5,000. Also, I would like to suggest that the Iraqis have suffered a great deal of civillian casualties, not just from the IIPGW but also from subsequent sporadic bombing raids (I won’t even bother to go into the damage done by the sanctions).
This is of course only in the last 12 years. How many civillians have to die in the next 12 before we realise that something needs to be changed.
Finally, Garry is right to mention atrocities commited before 1990. Many civillians died in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia but that’s ok, nobody was counting back then so we can just forget about it. And then there were the two greatest acts of murder mankind has ever seen (short of the holocaust – well pointed out Sauron).
By: Rabie - 3rd July 2002 at 15:44
RE: Wedding gift from United States
ahh just cos we burnt DC down in 1812
rabie :9
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July 2, 2002 at 1:00 pm