Boulton Paul Defiant retractable fairing question

Hi James – no CD yet, but the post is very slow around here at the moment, will drop you a pm as soon as it arrives.

Relieved to hear that it all looks about right, you get to a point with these things when you’ve spent so long looking at them that you can’t see the obvious defects – the only way around this is to get someone else to look them over or leave them for a week or so and come back with fresh eyes.

Not sure what you mean about the gunsight as the reflector gunsight is there just doesn’t show up very well in the gloom – or do you mean the actual crosshairs lit up in the reflector? In which case yes I should get around to them at some point. I’ll need to take another look at the doors, there could be several reasons why they don’t appear through the glass in this pic, most likely is the refractive index of the perspex material I have assigned to the panels is too high and thus the light is distorted so the doors appear to be missing, or it could be that the number of reflection or transparency levels is set too low in my render settings and the rays are not getting through. Will have to look at that. Still waiting for the copy of the Air Minstry turret manual to arrive from Hendon so will probably find some significant errors and ommissions in the turret model once that arrives.

I’ve still got a fair bit of work to do in the cockpit – basic instruments, harness, pilot, airgunner – parasuit etc. I won’t be bothering with the landing gear as all the illos I have planned will be flying.

cheers alex

Looking very good! Seems to me you’ve got the subtle shapes pretty well.

Can’t think of any nitpicks except stuff I presume you’ve yet to add; Sutton harness for the pilot, gunsight in the turret(?) and in the rear view of the turret with the doors open, wouldn’t the door leading edges appear through the glazing as they slide around?

Have you received the CD OK?

Just a quick update for everyone who has been so helpful finding reference pix of obscure bits of the Boulton Paul Defiant that I have just uploaded a few more work in progress pix of the Defiant model to my album http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/album.php?albumid=54
Still a way to go, things slow going as I’m having to fit in the odd hour here and there between paying jobs etc.

cheers
alex

Some of these Crowood books are (IMO) very very good and this is certainly one of the better ones. Would have been interesting to see what the Finns would have made of the Roc’s had they actually got there !

The book ‘Turret Fighters Defiant and Roc’ has just arrived, really very good. For some reason I had got it into my head that it would be a very wordy and small paperback size book, but it’s nice and big and full of pictures – including tons of pix that I haven’t seen anywhere else. Particularly chuffed with an excellent pic of the turret under construction which shows loads of fiddly bits that I couldn’t see in any other pic.

That’s my weekend sorted 🙂

alex

thanks James,

saved that list in my files, save me looking through all my stuff.
Now if someone could just do the same for every aircraft my life would be a lot easier:D

There is a picture in the Crowood Press “Turret Fighters” book, with a close up showing how, with all four guns forward, the pilots canopy would come back over one gun barrel – not sure if it helps (very good book as well if I may say)

Agreed, an excellent book, highly recommended. Others to look out for listed by Mark for the BPA here:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/markansell/bpa/reference.html

As regards the gun ‘interference’, that could happen, but the turret could (and did) point forward with the guns either side of the canopy – they were often seen in this position. The guns couldn’t fire through the prop arc of course, but the pilot did have a trigger and could fire then fwd and up (just over the prop arc) if the gunner had positioned them so. I suspect this facility was discontinued when it was realised how useless it was. The prototype saves Alex’s problem by having no windows in the mid-canopy…

Cheers BSG-75

I’ll keep updating the album of WIP as I go (see my profile) and will do a big splurge of pix when the illos are done.

alex

Thanks BSG-75 I have the book on order, just waiting for it to arrive, hoping it’ll give me some details of specific encounters that I can then try to illustrate using the model.

I think you’ll enjoy it – really opened my eyes and took me away from the “two missions and out of service” mindset. Good luck, hope to see some snaps when you are done.

Thanks James, PM on the way. I’m sure they’ll come in handy.
Yes, I’ve got the Pat MaCaffry cutaway which is very good and cleared up a lot of questions for me, although it’s frustratingly vague in the fairing area.

Will stick to N1671 and my frame grabs from the training film for rivetting layout.

Thanks BSG-75 I have the book on order, just waiting for it to arrive, hoping it’ll give me some details of specific encounters that I can then try to illustrate using the model.

There is a picture in the Crowood Press “Turret Fighters” book, with a close up showing how, with all four guns forward, the pilots canopy would come back over one gun barrel – not sure if it helps (very good book as well if I may say)

Alex,
Drop me your postal address in a PM, and I’ll buzz you a CD copy of the high res shots I’ve just found. They’re not great, but you will get something out of them I’m sure.
Cheers

Thanks Don, have already checked out the Boulton Paul assoc, very nice replica which will be handy reference when it comes time to paint thousands of rivets on the texture maps.

It’s an impressive achievement, but it’s not accurate enough replica to do that, I’m afraid. The shape is incorrect around the nose area, and the structure is of mixed construction, not the somewhat unusual Boulton Paul stressed skin build. Stick to photos and N1671, I’d advise.

…and no capitals just to annoy james:p

:p to you too. 😉

Thanks for the insight into the fairing, I suspected that bit was just a flimsy bit of bent metal, good to know I can put some dents into it (dents are fun).

I suspect that I’m just being a bit too ‘anoraky’ about getting the details right and I could get away with having a lot of dirt on these perspex panels to obscure the interior. The intention was to make the turret the focus of the finished illustrations so I was aware that the areas closest to the turret ought to be as detailed as possible in case they stick out, although at least one of the illos will be a night shot so I’m probably being over cautious.

Unfortunately I can’t find my photos immediately, but I’m in a big shift around. I’ll let you know by e-mail if I can send any high res shots. Suggest you contact Mark Ansell likewise.

Have you been using the Pat MaCaffry drawings and cutaway?

Cheers,

that must have been a long time ago,

they only have a horse and cart now, sorry don, just yanking your chain, ellistown is even worse (just the other side of coalville), and no capitals just to annoy james:p

Thanks Don, have already checked out the Boulton Paul assoc, very nice replica which will be handy reference when it comes time to paint thousands of rivets on the texture maps.

I see you are in Long Eaton, I vaguely remember having to go there to interview someone in factory about something, can’t remember who or why, the only thing I can clearly remember was the station platform was colder than Siberia at the time 🙂

cheers alex

Thanks James. Sorry for the poor grammar, I need new reading glasses and currently unable to use my favourite keyboard so finding it quite difficult to type on this one. Too blind/lazy to proof anything these days. Difficult to believe that I was once a roving reporter and later a magazine journalist, many years ago 🙂

Thanks for the insight into the fairing, I suspected that bit was just a flimsy bit of bent metal, good to know I can put some dents into it (dents are fun).

I suspect that I’m just being a bit too ‘anoraky’ about getting the details right and I could get away with having a lot of dirt on these perspex panels to obscure the interior. The intention was to make the turret the focus of the finished illustrations so I was aware that the areas closest to the turret ought to be as detailed as possible in case they stick out, although at least one of the illos will be a night shot so I’m probably being over cautious.

I also must’ve been having too much fun in ’88 as it’s a total blank, I know where I was supposed to be (my second year of Art College in London) but can’t really recall anything about it, likewise 91 and 93/4 are hazy at best. Happy days – I think.

cheers
alex

I have managed to get hold of the mushroom book on the defiant, which is turning out to be as invaluable as everyone told me it would be 😮

Good oh, glad to hear it. BTW, a particular thing though is I quite like capitals – Defiant, Mushroom… Sorry.

However I found myself a bit stuck when it comes to the fairing between the turret and the canopy/cockpit. See illo below.
Does anyone have any pix of what the interior of this area looks like and the layout/workings of the hydraulic setup? From what I can piece together there appears to be a single actuator thingy and some sort of large box. But a diagram or interior photo would be really handy. I have the big cutway drawing of the Defiant but its not much help when it comes to this particular part of the aircraft.

Your problem is you can’t see into that area without taking something apart. The pilot’s head armour blocks it off from in front, the turret from behind, and the area underneath is only accessible in servicing.

IIRC, both fwd and aft fairings were actuated by a single centrally placed hydraulic ram each. The rim of the fwd fairing nearest the turret is actually a thin, light metal item, quite dented on N1671. I can’t remember if you could see into the fairing when it was up through the back of the turret – it was 1988 when I was in it, which I realise is now 21 years ago. Must’ve been having fun.

Hello Alex,

The chaps at the Boulton Paul Association might be able to assist…

Cheers,

Don