Anyway, In response to Mongu’s replies on the 911 aftermath here are my personal views, backed by an article I just read. (Knack)
What frustrates me the most is not that the US since 911 has become more isolated, but how Bush and his administration manipulates and frightens his own people by saying his country is at war. Here are some statements I find exaggerated about 911.
THE WORLD HAS CHANGED SINCE 911.
No, America has changed since 911. The world has not. For America this has been the first strike on its own soil since 1814 (not talking about Pearl Harbour) when English partisans burned down the white house. Being at war – only for one day – was a completely new experience for the Americans which caused fear, stress … For Europe, this was not something new; how many times were we invaded by our neighbours? France invaded Germany, Germany invaded France … So we also had our portion of terrorism (terrorism which is a form of war, just like conventional and nuclear war, it’s not the “evil”, it’s war).
It’s safe to say that Europeans have more experience in war than Americans, not in making war, but in dealing with war. America has never seen enemy tanks moving towards their capital city, has never seen troops marching on the “Champ’s elysee”. 911 was the first day (not talking about civil war which was a national problem) that America was attacked by a bad guy outside the US. Instead of asking why someone would want to hurt the US, they simply responded by … killing the bad guys, throwing over some ‘evil’ regimes and that’s it. It seems like most Americans don’t even know why so many people dislike their nation. Not in Europe, most people criticize the US, but don’t hate it. There’s so much more than simply killing the bad guys … terrorism is like cancer. Some elements might be destroyed by it, for others this might even work the opposite.
I’ve heard the reply: don’t you find 911 a tragedy? I mean, 3000 people were killed. Yes indeed, it was a tragedy, but not more than an average day in WWII. The fact that this was something completely new for the US, does not necessarily mean this was something completely new for the whole world!
OUR NATION IS AT WAR.
US was at war on 911. On sept. 12th, there were no attacks, so on that day, the nation was not at war anymore. Bush should stop making his people afraid, everyone can look through these, especially the democrats. It’s just a tactical move of Bush to get all Americans behind him and his party. The average American who’s frightened 911 might happen again, sees no other option that voting on the republican party, because “we are at war”. As a stated above; war is when thousands of people are dying on the streets, and AFAIK this has not happened in the US since the civil war.
By: keltic - 18th June 2002 at 16:25
RE: There is no such thing as war on terrorism
I suppose we are not target as far as we keep uninvolved, something which is hard to say. Many Alqaeda member have been put under detention here, so we are starting to receive threatens. I suppose integrism wants to keep Europe aside, since they think they could benefits from the US-EU split and by the EU comerce with many arab countries and palestinian support. I don´t trust this, and anything could happen here too.
By: seahawk - 18th June 2002 at 12:56
RE: There is no such thing as war on terrorism
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 18-06-02 AT 12:58 PM (GMT)]Oh no my friend. The West in the eyes of the 9/11 terrorists is just the US plus it´s puppet states like the countries in europe.
It is a typical european left wing liberal idea that it did not mean europe.
And comparing the ETA or other european terrorist organisations to El Kaida is stupid. I never saw a ETA suicide bomber, and the old style Islamic terrorists never had the resources to come up with something big like 9/11. The attack on Afghanistan was needed, to destroy the main save heaven for the terrorists, as a cooperation with the Taliban government was no real option. These attacks did not destroy El Kaida, but I´m sure they severly disrupted their operations.
In so far you are right that only international cooperation in the field of intelligence can destroy such an organisation.
And a solution for the middle east would help too.
Btw how can you be sure that your intelligence agencies did not recieve any help from the US against GIA ??
Saying an attack on a football stadion would be more effective, yes it would kill more people, but it would not be so symbolic. There is huge difference between say an attack on a football stadion in Munich or the government buildings in Berlin. (plz forgive my german view)
The difference is that killing football fans would not give you sympathy in the arabic population, while hitting government buildings of western countries would be seen as a major victory.
Until the bombing of tourists in Tunisia I might would have agreed that the target was the USA, but after that I´m sure that every western nation is a possible target.
The stupid speaches of Bush are surely not helpfull.
I personally hope that you are right with your view that we europeans are not targets, but honestly I doubt that.
By: keltic - 18th June 2002 at 12:42
RE: There is no such thing as war on terrorism
i support the US fight against terrorist but not unilateraly. If there are proves of Saddam implication….fine, but as in the Gulf War under the UN. The World against terror as in Afganistan (I still have my doubts about the success of the operation, but OK). And if the Saudis are implicated….OK the same. But it seems that we prefer to look to other side in this case, because they provide us place for bases and petrol. Terrorist rquires a lot of patient and hidden actions. Not attacks against popualations. Terrorists are invisible enemies, new measures will be needed.
By: Geforce - 18th June 2002 at 11:49
There is no such thing as war on terrorism
You can bomb a country back to the stone-age, but I don’t believe you can root out terrorism with military force. A war on terrorism can’t be finished in a couple of weeks, months or even years. So what can you do about it? Just wait and see who’ll strike the US today? Ofcourse not, but intelligence is important, having lots of allies. It’s not a popularity contest, but in some cases, you would better keep your mouth shut instead of saying as controversial as the axis of evil.
And Keltic is right; when did the US supported Spain in its ‘fight’ against ETA, when did they supported Japan when they were attacked by sarin gas in the subway’s of Tokyo? Belgium has also been threatened a couple of times by terrorists (GIA-Ageria), last time in 1998, because we refused to release GIA-terrorists. Back then, the French gave us their full support, but the US??? They simply didn’t care. Now they want us to get behind them simply because they were under attack? Hypocrisy …
Ohh and Seahawk, I’m still convinced this was an attack on the US rather than on the western world. If you really want to hurt the ‘west’ (if there’s such a thing as the west), than it would be better to attack a football stadium in Tokyo. But that doesn’t change the fact that 911 was barbaric!
By: squasher - 18th June 2002 at 09:35
RE: Boy, this will cause me a lot of problems …
I agree with GeForce. If Bush really wanted to fight terrorism he would have taken action against a country whose name I shall not take. The whole world knows this country is a nerve centre of terrorism not only in its region but a breeding ground for terrorism world-wide.
America has lost all the sympathy that it had gained simply because “the war on terror” has been used as a political gimmick and its conduct has been the worst form of hypocricy ever.
It doesnt surprise me one bit that there are people who have America so deeply.
By: keltic - 18th June 2002 at 09:16
RE: Boy, this will cause me a lot of problems …
I remind you ETA attack some years ago against a shopping centre in Barcelona killing more than 20 people and attacks against civilians who don´t think as they do. Terrorism is terrorism in all circunstances. They might have right, but loses it when they use violence to kill inocents.
By: seahawk - 18th June 2002 at 07:05
RE: Boy, this will cause me a lot of problems …
GeForce I can agree to some points, like the missing experience of the Americans in war coming to their homes, etc.
But imo that was not an attack on the US – it was an attack on the whole western world. And as long as terrorists threaten to make such attacks again we are at war. That also means we are at war with every country that supports such terrorists.
These terrorists are of a very different kind, then the terrorism we are used to in europe. Like ETA or IRA or the left wing terrorism in the 70´s and 80´s. The old style terrorism was aimed at political or industrial targets, while the new terrorism aims at killing people. Read about the plans to build a dirty nuclear bomb, or use chemical weapons.
I´m sure you would think very different about 9/11 when it would have been a skyscraper in Belgium that was hit and some of your friends killed or injured.
It is not so that we europeans are not targets as well, look at the bombing in Tunisia, where european tourists were the target for a terrorist attack.
I do not agree on the mainly military aproach of the US to solve the problem. Sometimes you cannot solve a problem with force. On the other hand I doubt that you would have been able to disturb the organisation of EL kaida in Afghanistan with anything else but with force.
Iraq is a different story. I see no direct threat to the world coming from Iraq. There have been no connections confirmed between Saddam and Al Kaida.
By: tomel - 18th June 2002 at 04:34
RE: Boy, this will cause me a lot of problems …
War on terror -for sure will increase Mr Bush chance to be re-elected for the second terms.Try to imagine if the 911 attack -managed to be stopped.Mr Bush wont be as important as he is now.A lot major defence contract would not get the go ahead,US troops wont be able to be base in variuos strategic places,no chance in hell to do a personal vendetta on behalf of his father.Saddam beware.:+ :+ :+
By: mongu - 17th June 2002 at 18:50
RE: Boy, this will cause me a lot of problems …
100% correct Geforce.
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June 17, 2002 at 6:09 pm