Brazilian Navy air defence????

i have a good idea to boost the Brasilian navy’s air defence assets, it doesnt cost that much, has radar, BVR capability, its agile and relyable.

the awnser: surplus US Navy F/A-18A/B/C or D’s
why not, at least it will give the air defence and attack capabilities a much needed boost 😎

Used Hornets with low hours are in very short supply. Its not that I am not in support of Brazil getting any. I just don’t see it happening for a number of reasons!:(

(Ilmolvat) Finish Air Force models

Ilmavoimat…??
almoust to the point;) 😉

Anyway, when speaking of SA navies, you should really look the situation from their angle and from their history. Trougth the 20st century, there have been naval rivaly between the “super powers” of the region and that have always included one or two “big ones” per navy (and always “bigger than the ones in the neighbours:D ) It was so with the dreadnougths, and it was so with the carriers. Not only that Argentina and Brazil operated two ex WWII british ligth fleet carriers, there were other plans for such as well. Peruvians considered really seriously of purchasing HMS Bulwark in the 70’s. Chileans were so desperate that they even considered of turning their old Brooklyn class cruiser into Flattopper…

So in the ligth of current military situation in SA, the near scrapyard Sao Paolo , four Sky Hawks and two pilots are adequote to the task that the entire ship and its precidors were mented be….You guys seriosly werent thinking that Brazilian navy should have some practical military use of its carrier:eek: :confused: 😮

French service:

Vought F-8 Crusader
EMPTY WEIGHT 19,925 lbs (9,038 kg)
MAXIMUM TAKE-OFF WEIGHT 34,000 lbs (15,422 kg)

Dassault Super Etendard (Standard)
EMPTY WEIGHT 14,330 lbs (6,500 kg)
MAXIMUM TAKE-OFF WEIGHT 26,455 lbs (12,000 kg)

Brazilian service:

McDonnell Douglas A-4 Skyhawk
EMPTY WEIGHT 10,465 lbs (4,747 kg)
MAXIMUM TAKE-OFF WEIGHT 24,500 lbs (11,115 kg)

Other alternatives:

HAL Light Combat Aircraft (replace Sao Paolo by ADS eventually?)
Weight empty: 12,125 lbs (5500 kg)
Max Take-Off Weight 27,560 lbs (12,500 kg)

AMX-ATA
Empty Weight: 14,837 lbs (6,730 kg)
Max Take-Off Weight 28,660 lbs (13,000 kg)

Vought A-7 Corsair II
EMPTY WEIGHT 18,942 lbs (8,592 kg)
MAXIMUM TAKE-OFF WEIGHT 42,000 lbs (19,051 kg)

Dassault Rafale
EMPTY WEIGHT 19,973 lbs (9,060 kg)
MAXIMUM TAKE-OFF WEIGHT 47,399 lbs (21,500 kg)

Boeing / McDonnell Douglas / Northrop F/A-18 Hornet
EMPTY WEIGHT 23,050 lbs (10,455 kg)
MAXIMUM TAKE-OFF WEIGHT 56,000 lbs (25,400 kg)

Mikoyan Mig-29K
Empty Weight: 24,030 lbs (10,899.8 kg)
Maximum Take Off Weight: 49,383 lbs (22,400 kg )

Don’t the A4s carry the AIM-9H?

i have a good idea to boost the Brasilian navy’s air defence assets, it doesnt cost that much, has radar, BVR capability, its agile and relyable.

the awnser: surplus US Navy F/A-18A/B/C or D’s
why not, at least it will give the air defence and attack capabilities a much needed boost 😎

Why not? Look at what Russia pays for, from a GDP about the same size.

Affordability, in the Brazilian context, is purely political. There are higher priorities for public spending than the military, & the chief priority for military spending is officers pay & pensions. Stop paying all the “shadow” civil servants, stop the rest retiring in their 40s & collecting a pension while doing another job, trim the bloated officer corps & Brazil could afford a couple of CVFs with a full complement of Rafale & E-2D – and a hell of a lot more.

That isn’t going to happen in the near future, but I wish people would stop going on about what Brazil can & can’t afford. It is solely a matter of politics.

Even is your case the funds are not available. So, its really matters little……..

A few points:

The A-7 can operate from this carrier. The MN operated the F-8E(FN) for many years, & the A-7 is only a few hundred kg lighter empty. Rafale is heavier than either, & guess which ship was used for Rafales carrier trials? 😀

Canadian F-18s would need US permission to be sold on, but there’s no reason to think approval would be withheld. US manufacturers were able to bid the F-18E & F-16 for Brazils postponed fighter requirement. The navy was asking for SSNs back then, but it didn’t seem to matter. The USA has recently made an unsolicited offer of spare S-3s to the Brazilian navy (Brazil said “no thanks”).

MiG-29K is not practical. It’s heavier than A-7 or Rafale, & there is no catapult-compatible version. The ship would need reconstructing with a ski-jump for STOBAR. Expensive & pointless.

Sea Harrier FA.2s are, I believe, no longer available for purchase. Since the MoD refused to sell India the Blue Vixen radars, nobody is interested in even asking about them, & the stored airframes are being scrapped.

Foch did not need a deck extension to operate the F-18A. See – http://frenchnavy.free.fr/projects/hornet/hornet.htm
“Experts and engineers from both the French Navy and Northrop concluded that only a few minor modifications (worth as much of a F-18 at the time) would be necessary on the carriers, mainly concerning the catapults and jet blast deflectors.” Nor Rafale. The carrier trials proved that. The MN actively lobbied for a stopgap purchase of secondhand F-18s to tide it over until Rafale was in service. There were no technical reasons for not buying it.

As for money – well, Brazil currently spends about as much on defence as Israel. OK, Israel also receives lots of aid. Let’s re-state it as more than Singapore, more than Greece, 2/3rds as much as Spain. And with lower internal prices than any of them. As a percentage of GDP it’s very low (about 1%) & is less than 25% of the annual balance of payments surplus, so a few billion on arms purchases would hardly register in the trade accounts.

Ok calm down everyone, lets look at all these ideas in a logical sence:

F-35: Doubtful, America and Brazil are at odds atm because of the MdB pressing hard for SSN’s. There is also political rivalry between Brazil and the US, but it’s not deep enough for Washington to susspend trade with Brazil yet.

AV-8B: Again doubtful because of the above reason and the ones mentioned higher up. FA-2’s might be more realistic, but with London being politically inclinded to Washington, this too is doubtful.

Hornets: Guess what I am about to say :diablo: Sorry Guys, Again with the US control, even over exported equipment- Canada needs US approval to sell them off to who ever. Whilest the Hornet can operate off the deck, they do need to make extentions to allow these ops- this was found by the french and why they chose not to buy them even as a stop gap. Besides, should the Hornet be aquired for the MdB, I think they would be used more along the lines of the (Ilmolvat) Finish Air Force models- Fighters only. This is obviously and advantage here when coupled with the AFW Trackers, have the Hornets as CAP, meanwhile relegate the AF-1’s to the job they are best at- STRIKE. Hornets could lead a strike package and sweep aside all opposition allowing the bombers in easily.

A-7: Not an option here, the Corsair is just too heavy even loaded with just fuel, tor ops on the deck of this carrier. Besides, they are too old and there aren’t that many flying these days. Oh and the US thing again :dev2:

Rafael: Now you are just being silly, where on Earth would they get the money for them? The ship would need the mods again (refer Hornets) and these could be done but only after the rest of the ship was fixed up.

Mig-29K: I am sure Russia would rather supply these instead of hard currency for the products in imports from Brazil, but Brazil needs the cash sadly.

The best option is to scrap the ship and most of the unservicable fleet units and build a better navy that isd far more professional.

If, Brazil keeps the Sao Paulo in service. The Hornet is really the only viable option. I do like the idea of a mixed Air Force/Navy buy of F/A-18’s. That said, I doubt Brazil could afford it anytime sooooon!:eek:

Why not? Look at what Russia pays for, from a GDP about the same size.

Affordability, in the Brazilian context, is purely political. There are higher priorities for public spending than the military, & the chief priority for military spending is officers pay & pensions. Stop paying all the “shadow” civil servants, stop the rest retiring in their 40s & collecting a pension while doing another job, trim the bloated officer corps & Brazil could afford a couple of CVFs with a full complement of Rafale & E-2D – and a hell of a lot more.

That isn’t going to happen in the near future, but I wish people would stop going on about what Brazil can & can’t afford. It is solely a matter of politics.

If they could afford to actually refurbish the Sao Paulo, then Hornets could be an option (the French looked at them in the ’80s, as an interim option pending Rafale). A purchase of ex-Canadian F/A-18s might work – eight for the Brazilian Navy, and twenty-four for the Brazilian Air Force, as a replacement for the F-XBR (or whatever it’s called!) contest. An airwing of eight Hornets, and ideally eight Skyhawks, would be a very good capability…

If, Brazil keeps the Sao Paulo in service. The Hornet is really the only viable option. I do like the idea of a mixed Air Force/Navy buy of F/A-18’s. That said, I doubt Brazil could afford it anytime sooooon!:eek:

I think Rafale is the best fighter they could go for, but MiG-29K is always a dark horse option.

What I think they really need is 4-6 air defence destroyers, maybe Horizons or something.

If they could afford to actually refurbish the Sao Paulo, then Hornets could be an option (the French looked at them in the ’80s, as an interim option pending Rafale). A purchase of ex-Canadian F/A-18s might work – eight for the Brazilian Navy, and twenty-four for the Brazilian Air Force, as a replacement for the F-XBR (or whatever it’s called!) contest. An airwing of eight Hornets, and ideally eight Skyhawks, would be a very good capability…

All of these proposals depend on funding. Brasil can afford whatever aircraft it chooses, as far as its economy is concerned, but affording them politically is very difficult.

How would a bunch of refurbed A-7’s to relative to refurbed A-4s? In various roles? Backed up by, say, a few Turbo Trackers for ASW and perhaps even AEW? Or surplus early model F-18?

Surplus AV8s until the F35 comes on stream.

Unicorn

What surplus AV-8’s and can Brazil afford F-35’s???

Main issue is that it seems the A-12 São Paulo is a “sacred cow” for our Brazilian Friends…you go to a Brazilian Forum and start talking bad about the A-12 they crucify you on the spot:D

I dunno if (but i guess) it is still the old rivlary with Argentina speaking (altough the 25 de Mayo is long gone into history)

Now with Venezuela “planning” to re-arm like crazy (Russian SSKs) I guess they are going still to burn more money on a very old ship , and , as Ja says, with only 2 pilotes available:eek: ….

I would scrap the A-12 and think about renewing the other ships…:rolleyes:

And there are still Brazilian colleagues that dream of buying former US CVs , like the J.F.Kennedy…:D :confused: 🙁

Surplus AV8s until the F35 comes on stream.

Unicorn

What surplus AV-8s? Last I heard, the USMC is worried about keeping enough operating until it can get F-35B.

Surplus AV8s until the F35 comes on stream.

Unicorn

sadly the AV-8 would be more trouble to keep flighting than the the A-4 🙁

Yet, my dear old friend………….What type of aircraft could fly from its decks???

Surplus AV8s until the F35 comes on stream.

Unicorn

I asked my friend that same question just recently here’s what I was told:

VF-1 is down to only four serviceable planes and two pilots that are currently fully carrier quallified. Sao Paolo is under refit atm with a lot of work needing to be done to her.

Apart from the faulty cats, and boiler room fire, the electrics need replacing the whole pipe system needs pulling apart and replaced since some stupid french git allowed salt water in to the fresh water system. The Fuel transfer system to the deck is on the fritz and most of the machinery is cactus.

US$12M was a bargin too good to be true and now we see why. The MdB should have bought a new carrier from Spain which would have been cheaper in the long run.

Yet, my dear old friend………….What type of aircraft could fly from its decks???