Bristol Bombay Information

Neil:
If you have access to magzine back issues Aeroplane Monthly Dec 1989 has a very detailed article on the Bombay.
Surprisingly there were only 50 made plus 100 or so similar HP Harrows, miniscule quantities by war standards, yet both types pretty much made it all through WW2 being useful all the way. It would seem that in 1939 the RAF should have had a lot more of them (and perhaps a lot less Fairey Battles)
Regards
Bill

Well all I can say is that both the books I mentioned say II and III. The link in post #12 is mostly extracts from these books including a chunk on the Bombay and pictures of the Type B.I as a dorsal turret on a Blenheim.

Many appologies

I dug out my book on Bristol aircraft & it was the B.II & B.III turrets, not sure why I thought it was a B.I in the nose.

Bob T.

Thanks to everyone who has sent info on this subject, think I have enough now to complete a convincing model. The photo below of the front turret intrigues me, the sheets of perspex are almost stitched together with no framing, how was this done?
One last question, did air ambulances such as the Australian Bombays carry guns?
NeilH

Looks to me like they were simply rivetted. I don’t see any sign of a sealer between the individual sheets.

Apologies in order

“From the 211 Squadron RAF Association website (http://www.211squadron.org/blenheim_armament.html)”

The site is wholly my responsibility, from the outset in 2001, as my Enquiry page carefully explains.

Technical post-script:
The link in BoW’s post to my Blenheim Armament page is malformed (by inclusion of trailing punctuation). It duly appeared as a referral error in my site stats, hence my tracking down the instance here. Anyone still interested can reach it easily via the site URL, above.

My apologies Don. When I first chanced upon your website – many years ago now – I was under the impression from the many dialogues, that you were connected with the association. I will retroactively edit my first post to reflect the correct link-citation, the first chance I get. Though I’m at a loss to see where the punctuation changed in the link!?!? I left a space before close bracket, and the link worked when I checked it. Curious?

Regards, …geoff

Thanks to everyone who has sent info on this subject, think I have enough now to complete a convincing model. The photo below of the front turret intrigues me, the sheets of perspex are almost stitched together with no framing, how was this done? [ATTACH=CONFIG]225011[/ATTACH]
One last question, did air ambulances such as the Australian Bombays carry guns?
NeilH

From the Don Clark’s 211 Squadron RAF website (see also post #21 below):
D Clark 211 Squadron RAF www.211squadron.org

“…Blenheim was a Bristol product throughout: engines, airframe, and turret all Bristol designed. Initial deliveries of the Blenheim I were originally fitted with the Bristol Type B.I Mk I turret, with a single Lewis .303″ drum-fed machine gun. According to Diagram 41 General Equipment of The Blenheim I Aeroplane Air Publication 1530A Vol I, in addition to the single pan mounted on the Lewis, there were no less than seven spare pans racked on the fuselage sides within the gunner’s reach, four to Port and three to Starboard. In total, approximately 400 rounds, for 57 round pans. …”

Graham Warner’s book notes on p69, that “….after the exhibition at Paris, K7034 was fitted with full operational equipment, including a functional Bristol B1 turret with a Lewis Mk III gun, and did not arrive at Martlesham until January 1937. …”

Not that I consider myself a “Blenheim guy”.

Part of the “novelty” of the Bristol dorsal turret is that the seat went up and down in reverse to raising or lowering of the machine gun, to allow for use in alignment of the gunsight to the target. This would have required a reasonable depth of fuselage to accommodate this range of motion. If we look at the photo of the Bristol Bombay rear-turret, the depth of fuselage housing under the turret cupola doesn’t allow a Blenheim style dorsal turret with full range of seat motion to be fitted – unless heavily modified.

Regards,
…geoff

Are there any Blenhiem guy’s out there who can confirm if it is a B.I or B.III fitted to the Blenhiem ?.

Bob T.

According to my Bristol aircraft book, the Bombay had the B.I & the B.II.

Are there any B.I’s or B.II’s out there for you to check against ?.

Bob T.

Well all I can say is that both the books I mentioned say II and III. The link in post #12 is mostly extracts from these books including a chunk on the Bombay and pictures of the Type B.I as a dorsal turret on a Blenheim.

No. 1 Air Ambulance Unit of the Royal Australian Air Force operated them in 1943 in North Africa and Italy. They were also operated as transports by 216 Squadron RAF (1939 to 1943) and 271 Squadron (1940/41). 117 Squadron and 267 Squadron also operated them, but not in the same numbers.

The Flight pages in #2 have internal shots. I’ve seen a few more around, I’ll check to see if there are any on the internet. I don’t recall seeing any close-ups of the turrets recently though. Another external shot of the nose is here. The prototype had a glazed nose, but I believe the production Bombay had a Bristol B.II turret at the front and a B.III turret at the back.

One Bombay ‘survives’: L5846 ditched in to the sea just off Gibraltar after an engine failure on 26th November 1941. Apparently it is possible to dive the wreck.

Andrew

Hi Andrew

Are you sure it’s a Bombay in the sea off of Gib ?, I have heard of a Blenheim thats supposed to be in that area, but not a Bombay.

Cheer’s.
Bob T.

Well the book says that the Type B.I was a dorsal turret, but as I say I know nowt about these things.

The Putnam volume Armament of British Aircraft 1909 – 1939 also says B.II and B.III and there is a picture of both on page 113. Unfortunately I only have a low res dodgy .pdf version, perhaps someone else can post the illustration here

I believe the B.III was an upper turret as used in the Blenhiem/Bollingbroke. According to my Bristol aircraft book, the Bombay had the B.I & the B.II.

Are there any B.I’s or B.II’s out there for you to check against ?.

Bob T.

Still confused about whether the whole turret including glazing moved or just the gun ring, I assume the latter?.

Hello Neil,
That’s my understanding of the workings. The gun ring and gimbol attached gun sight revolves as directed by the gunner. The complex lever arm arrangement (as seen in the nose turret photo) allows for elevation of the gun as laid by the movement of the gunsight. The glass house is just a cupola/enclosed windshield. Nose turret is also the bomb-aiming office with a separate seat for the bomb-sight use.

It reminds me of the original operational Vickers Wellington Mk I nose and tail turrets, which were a streamlined cupola arrangement, with the machine gun moving around a traversing track mechanism. I haven’t managed to find a photo/drawing of the Wellington gun-laying mechanism, but assume that it would be of a similar ilk to the Bombay, though perhaps a little simpler with the larger size of the Wellington cupola. Both aircraft were of a similar initial into-service period, first flights 1935-36, squadron use 1938-ish, and initially before power operated nose/tail turrets became commonplace (I think).

Not sure if you are aware of the ADF (Australian Defence Force) serial website, which has photo gallery of the Bombay in RAAF No 1 Air Ambulance Unit operations.
http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/Bombay/P990234

Regards,
…geoff

Thanks Geoff there are some excellent diagrammes of the interiors of the turret mechanism and one internal photo of the front turret. Still confused about whether the whole turret including glazing moved or just the gun ring, I assume the latter?[ATTACH=CONFIG]224885[/ATTACH]
Best photo of the rear turret I have found is attached.

…..can point me in the direction of interior shots of the flight deck, front and rear turrets that would be really helpful. …….

Apologies for the cross-forum referencing. This linked page – http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=114&t=20042&start=15 – takes you to a lengthy discussion on gun turret types, including quite a bit of detail on the Bristol Bombay’s B.II and B.III turrets. There are photos with referenced books, etc.

Regards,
…geoff

I believe that the Bombay had a B.I at the front, & a B.II at the **** end.

Bob T.

Well the book says that the Type B.I was a dorsal turret, but as I say I know nowt about these things.

The Putnam volume Armament of British Aircraft 1909 – 1939 also says B.II and B.III and there is a picture of both on page 113. Unfortunately I only have a low res dodgy .pdf version, perhaps someone else can post the illustration here

How do you check Frise’s patents ?

I use
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/
but there are other sites

According to British Aircraft Armament vol 1 the Bombay had a Bristol Type B.II in the nose and a B.III in the tail. I know nothing about these turrets but it may be worth checking Frise’s patents to see if they were covered.

I believe that the Bombay had a B.I at the front, & a B.II at the tail end.

Bob T.

Thanks Geoff, ordered and on its way!
I think I have seen a poor scan of the cutaway on the net so a better quality one will hopefully be useful,
NeilH

According to British Aircraft Armament vol 1 the Bombay had a Bristol Type B.II in the nose and a B.III in the tail. I know nothing about these turrets but it may be worth checking Frise’s patents to see if they were covered.

How do you check Frise’s patents ? I would love to search for patents by Frise, Folland, Sigrist and others 1925 – 1935, or Bristol Aeroplane & Hawker Aircraft in the same period.

According to British Aircraft Armament vol 1 the Bombay had a Bristol Type B.II in the nose and a B.III in the tail. I know nothing about these turrets but it may be worth checking Frise’s patents to see if they were covered.

Air Enthusiast article

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/AIR-ENTHUSIAST-QUARTERLY-18-BRISTOL-BOMBAY-ESTONIA-AIRFORCE-RAZORBACKS-/151138079365

Air Enthusiast (Quarterly) No18 (see attached random eBay link for magazine cover….I have no connection to the auction item) has an article on the Bombay operations in the Western Desert. It includes mention of the (few) early bombing raids, and – from memory – has a cutaway drawing of the aircraft.

Regards,
…geoff