Bristol F.2b F4587

hi,
in British Civil Aircraft 1919-1959,it states “the old crocks event at the 1937 RAF Display also boasted a Bristol Fighter,this time a all silver Mk.IV F4587,flown by Sqn.Ldr. N.R.Buckle,who in 1938 with no more displays in which to fly it,registered it as a private a/c G=AFHJ.”
G-INFO says registered to Sqn. Ldr N.R.Buckle, HQ.FIGHTER COMM.Bentley Priory. Destruction or Permanent withdrawl as 1-1-46(Census 1945).
Serial no. 7146.

regards
jack…

24 Sqn ORB

Hendon 19th Jan 1937 Bristol Fighter F4587, Falcon III engine 2141/52095 was received from the RAE Farnborough for storage purposes, being for use of the RAF Display Comittee

This aeroplane, which was a part of the pre-war ‘historic types’ collection of the RAF, was destroyed in an air raid on Hendon during WW2. Can someone tell me the date on which it was destroyed? Was it 7.9.40? Also I understand that it was stored at Hendon along with other ‘historic types’ – possibly a Farman F.40, an LVG, a Sopwith Triplane and an SE5A. Can anyone identify the other aircraft with which it was stored and say whether any of them were destroyed along with the Brisfit?

Firstly, F4587 was not part of any RAF collection, it was a privately owned, civil aircraft. Nevile Buckle flew it at the 1937 Hendon Air Pageant and on its retirement from the RAF he bought it for himself and registered it as related in previous posts. At the 1937 Pageant it was in all-silver:

as shown in this photo copied from Chris Barnes’ book Bristol Aircraft since 1910.

Secondly, what is not disputed is that it was destroyed during WW2, the questions are where, when and how? Where is the evidence that it was hangared at Hendon when it was destroyed and that the destruction was as a result of enemy action? Both Barnes and A.J.Jackson state simply that it was destroyed during WW2 – they don’t mention a location or enemy action. Buckle was posted to various places between 1939 – 1945 and it is perfectly possible that his aircraft was simply burnt to save hangar space – as were many impressed civilian aircraft let alone WWI-era obsolete types. All that we know for certain is that it was taken off the register in 1946.

Thirdly, where is the evidence that the other types mentioned were ever hangared at Hendon. The types mentioned, Farman, LVG, Sopwith Triplane, SE5A et al were ones which had appeared in the so-called “Old Crocks” events at the 1936 and 1937 Hendon Pageants but they were privately owned (in the case of the Farman & SE5A) by R.G.Nash (t/a The International Horseless Carriage Corporation) and were hangared at Brooklands not Hendon. The LVG and the Sopwith Triplane had been in the collection of the Imperial War Museum although stored in the basement of the Science Museum between 1924 and 1932. These were later dumped at Cardington but were moved to Hendon in 1936 for restoration to fly by Buckle and F.S.Scott – both appearing in the 1936 and 1937 Pageants together with an SE.5A (F938/G-EBIC) and Bristol Fighter (F4587). The Triplane and LVG were noted in poor condition at No.5 M.U. Kemble on 21 June 1945 – their subsequent histories are known.

Finally, where is the evidence that any other “historic types” were ever “stored at Hendon” – apart from when they were participants in the 1936 & 1937 Pageants?

This is not “speculation” – it’s hard fact:

Speculation as to the stablemates, if any, at the time F4587/G-AFHJ was destroyed by enemy action at Hendon during WW2, not speculation as to the participants in the 1936 and 1937 Hendon displays. Or are you saying that the six aircraft listed were hangared with the F4587/G-AFHJ at Hendon at the time of the air raid in which it was destroyed but avoided its fate?

Well, no-one seems to know when F4587/G-AFHJ was destroyed at Hendon or whether it was the only ‘old crock’ to succumb on that occasion and, if not, which other aeroplanes were destroyed with it. Maybe it’s one of those mysteries that will remain that way.

Both ‘British Civil Aircraft 1919-1972’ and ‘British Civil Aircraft Registers since 1919’ say no more than that G-AFHJ/F4587 was destroyed by enemy action during WW2. As to its stablemates at the time, the speculation within this post has been intelligent. Maybe they were those suggested. However other pre-war Hendon display participants included a Camel, a Wright Biplane, a Caudron, a Farman ‘Horace’ and another F.2b (G-ADJR – scrapped in 1938) in 1936 and a Farman F.40, an LVG, a Sopwith Triplane, an F.2b (probably G-AFHJ/F4587) and an SE5a in 1937. If there were stablemates, perhaps they were amongst these. It would be good if somoene could identify them.

This is not “speculation” – it’s hard fact:

Camel “F6314” RAF Museum – real identity untraced
Caudron G.III G-AETA (ntu) RAF Museum
Farman F.40 F-HMFI RAF Museum
Sopwith Triplane N5912 RAF Museum
SE.5A G-EBIC/F938 (possible parts swap with F939/G-EBIB during ownership by Jack Savage in the 1930s) RAF Museum
LVG C.VI 7198/18 RAF Museum

Full histories of all of these can be downloaded in PDF form by clicking the photo and following the subsequent link from here:

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/raf-museum-collection.cfm

If you read the Sopwith Triplane history it fills in a lot of detail regarding its movements prior to 1936.

Dunno about a Wright biplane – did the original Wright Flyer ever appear at Hendon during its tenure at the Science Museum?

re

What were the Curtiss Bi-planes that were at Hendon (aka Helldiver)were they wiped out in the same raid?

Well, no-one seems to know when F4587/G-AFHJ was destroyed at Hendon or whether it was the only ‘old crock’ to succumb on that occasion and, if not, which other aeroplanes were destroyed with it. Maybe it’s one of those mysteries that will remain that way.

Both ‘British Civil Aircraft 1919-1972’ and ‘British Civil Aircraft Registers since 1919’ say no more than that G-AFHJ/F4587 was destroyed by enemy action during WW2. As to its stablemates at the time, the speculation within this post has been intelligent. Maybe they were those suggested. However other pre-war Hendon display participants included a Camel, a Wright Biplane, a Caudron, a Farman ‘Horace’ and another F.2b (G-ADJR – scrapped in 1938) in 1936 and a Farman F.40, an LVG, a Sopwith Triplane, an F.2b (probably G-AFHJ/F4587) and an SE5a in 1937. If there were stablemates, perhaps they were amongst these. It would be good if somoene could identify them.

IIRC, just in storage – they also have a Sopwith Dolphin, Fe2 and the Farman F.40 in there being worked on. Fingers crossed when they’re completed, they’ll be in a building accessible for more than two hours a day…..

re

Just a small point, the LVG is not displayed at Cosford but is in the Michael Beetham Restoration Centre.

Planemike

whats it doing in there? I thought it had been refurbished?

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/HistoricalMaterial/G-AFHJ.pdf

Just a small point, the LVG is not displayed at Cosford but is in the Michael Beetham Restoration Centre.

Planemike

Interesting Gentleman – could do with someone like him in charge of Hendon nowadays!

Air Commodore N R Buckle

Just found this about the owner of the Brisfit – he restored the Triplane for the 1936 Hendon Air Pageant – obviously a very early “Vintage” enthusiast.

He died in 1981.

http://www.rafweb.org/Biographies/Buckle.htm

and this thread contains a photo thought to be of G-AFHJ

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=60173

Interesting, I was looking at a photo of this very machine last night – shame it was destroyed, was particuarly interesting looking due to it’s larger tail than most Biffs – probably due to the fact it was based at A&AEE at Martlesham Heath

This aeroplane, which was a part of the pre-war ‘historic types’ collection of the RAF, was destroyed in an air raid on Hendon during WW2. Can someone tell me the date on which it was destroyed? Was it 7.9.40? Also I understand that it was stored at Hendon along with other ‘historic types’ – possibly a Farman F.40, an LVG, a Sopwith Triplane and an SE5A. Can anyone identify the other aircraft with which it was stored and say whether any of them were destroyed along with the Brisfit?

The Bristol Fighter was on the Civil Register at the time as G-AFHJ – having been registered to Sqdn Ldr N. R. Buckle at Hendon on 1 Sept 1938 – it was certainly destroyed but I can’t help on the date. The other aircraft all sound like the Nash Collection aircraft to me. If so the Farman is F-HMFI of the RAF Museum, the LVG C.VI (7198/18) was restored to fly in the 1970s by the Shuttleworth Collection (G-AANJ) but is now displayed at Cosford, the Sopwith Triplane is N5912 of the RAF Museum and the SE5A is F938/G-EBIC of the RAF Museum.