British Pilots in MIG Alley

1. from most accounts it ended up balanced at ‘5 All’ with numerous aircraft damaged along the way.

2. There is a tremendous book released last year, “The Forgotten Few” by GCAPT(ret’d) Doug Hurst.

1. The Meteor victory credits and losses in Korea, that I know, are pretty simple:
December 1 1951: 4 Meteors lost to MiG’s, 2 MiG’s destroyed credited to Meteors. The opponent was the Soviet 176 Guards Fighter Regiment which claimed 12 Meteors without loss.

May 8, 1952: Meteors were credited with 1 MiG destroyed for no loss. The opponent was the PLAAF 45th Fighter Regiment which actually lost 2 a/c with 2 others damaged, claiming 3 Meteors.

October 2 1952: Meteor downed without claim, Soviets claimed 1.

The first two combats had the only ‘destroyed’ credits by Meteors AFAIK, and there’s no evidence any of their other probable/damaged or unofficial credits (which some accounts add, or add some of, to the Meteors’ total) resulted in MiG losses. The MiG’s claimed loads of Meteors, Soviets 28 total, Chinese apparently another 8.

So, I think 2:5 is fairly well documented, though other kills couldn’t be 100% ruled out. I misrecalled above that the 3 destroyed credits were all against the Soviets: 2 were v the Soviets denied in their accounts, 1 was v the Chinese but actually 2 in their accounts.

2. That’s interesting, I’ll probably get it. Another is “Escape from North Korea” by Ron Guthrie, one of the 77 Sdn Meteor pilots downed by the Soviets. It described his flying and POW time, he didn’t actually escape.

Joe

. My understanding is that three Migs were downed by Meteors, but that the reverse was greater.

The Meteor changed roles through the course of the conflict from air-to-air to ground attack duties and proved more suited to the latter role. As for the Meteor Vs. Mig tally, from most accounts it ended up balanced at ‘5 All’ with numerous aircraft damaged along the way.

There is a tremendous book released last year, “The Forgotten Few” by GCAPT(ret’d) Doug Hurst. It records the involvement of the RAAF’s 77 Squadron in the Korean War.

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The book also mentions the RAF pilots that served with 77 Squadron. In fact, RAF pilots were involved with the conversion of the Australian pilots to Meteors from Mustangs prior to the aircraft seeing action.

Cheers

Owen

This page has info on the RAF/RCAF pilots who flew tours with F-86 units, may be limited to those who received credit for at least MiG’s ‘damaged’:
http://www.britains-smallwars.com/korea/air-war.html

Another RAF pilot who flew F-86’s in combat wrote about it was Colin Downes; his book “By the Skin of My Teeth” came out a couple of years ago, also covers his experiences as Mustang pilot in WWII and post Korea career.

Re RAAF but no RAF fighter units in Korea a better question might why the RAAF deployed Meteors as air combat a/c, which they started out as. This only confirmed that the Meteor was outclassed by the MiG-15 in high altitude combat, a fairly predictable result but some doubt would have remained otherwise. So it arguably undermined the deterrent value of all other Western Meteor units v the Soviets in bigger Cold War picture, out of proportion to anything that could have been achieved by one sdn in Korea. The 77Sdn Meteors claimed 3 MiG’s in their period of air superiority work in 1951 but Soviet accounts of those combats don’t reflect those losses (do reflect the combats, all were against Soviet AF MiG’s). 5 Meteors were downed by Soviet AF MiG’s. Later the Meteors downed 2 PLAAF MiG’s in low altitude combat defending themselves as fighter bombers, though they *weren’t* credited as confirmed destroyed. The losses are mentioned in official published Chinese accounts. So the Meteor’s overall record was apparently 2:5 v the MiG-15 in Korea. The MiG’s claimed a vastly greater number of Meteors, 20-some IIRC.

The Sea Fury v MiG-15 combat of August 9 1952 is also mentioned in published Chinese accounts. The 16 MiG’s in the general area (which clashed with more than one Sea Fury formation) were from the 7th and 52nd Fighter Regiments, PLAAF. They claimed 2 ‘FMK-8’ but don’t mention any losses; the Sea Fury’s were famously credited with a MiG that day, one Sea Fury of a different flight was shot up and belly landed on a UN held island. It doesn’t rule out that there were losses though, these are official published accounts which may emphasize the positive, though OTOH as noted above they mention Chinese MiG losses to Meteors not listed as victories in the West. And it’s conceivable other MiG units were involved, since there were several encounters.

JB: why did the RAAF have a unit in combat and not the RAF?

The timing of UN’s Korean Action was, ah, unfortunate. UK after VJ-Day had reduced/deferred combat types beyond Meteor/Vampire, as we had no enemy. One was defined in April,1948 and industry was put to delivery of Blue Danube A-Bomb. Around that time MiG-9/Yak-15 faced 12 RAFG Vampire F.1/24 Tempest F.2; HMS Triumph was the sole carrier at sea in December,1947 with 12 Seafire XV/16 Firefly F.R.1. Yet “Aircraft & Electronics” took 57% of 1949/50 Defence Production Expenditure, itself higher than any bar USA/USSR. UK Defence was garrison-centric, such as 80,000 bodies in the Canal Zone, whose duty was to defend….their base and its vast Supplies dumps. New types were coming on for the expected 1953 Event for which Korea was seen as dress rehearsal, best left to US/RAAF while we, with birds in bush, not hand, girded for the Real Thing.

Thought I’d throw this in as a side-bar… RCAF pilots on USAF Sabres in Korea

http://www.kvacanada.com/ha_airforce.htm

S/L JAO (Omer) Levesque was the first Commonwealth pilot to score a kill in Jet vs. Jet combat (March 31, 1951).

I had a friend who flew an FAA Sea Fury in the Korean conflict.

By his account, he spent the entire time hiding from Migs.

He felt it unfair that they had jets and he had a prop.

The Australians had similar feelings for a different reason: they were shifted from air-to-ground missions in Mustangs, still effective at that job, to air-to-air missions in Meteors, semi-obsolete at that mission. My understanding is that three Migs were downed by Meteors, but that the reverse was greater.

Not directly in accordance with the tone of the thread, but in general keeping with it. I friend of mine Barry Hempel (now deceased) owned and flew a Mig 15. I think he may have also flown a Sabre. He said that the Mig 15 was more than a match for the Sabre in turns of handling and aerodynamic performance.

I guess that it was the ability and experience that of the pilots that was the determining factor.

By the way he told me that his Mig 15 used 1500 litres of fuel an hour.

cheers

Another pilot was S/L ‘Paddy’ Harbison who took over the CFE detachment following the death of W/C Johnny Baldwin on 15 March 1952.

He wrote a comprehensive report on the relative merits of the F-86 Sabre and MiG-15 on his return. This is held at the National Archives (AIR 8/1709).

Peter

Duncan Curtiss’ book on RAF Sabres has a list of all the pilots involved, and details of many of their service

Indeed it does…….should have remembered that as I have it on the bookshelf 😮

Oh well 😀

Just had a quick refresher flick through the relevent pages, and one of the RAF Korean war Sabre pilots was a certain ‘Jock’ Maitland of Biggin Hill Air Fair fame 🙂
Maitland shot down a MiG that was he wasn’t offically credited with as post flight gun camera film showed that the kill was made north of the Yalu, something that was offically frowned upon.

Ive been meaning to get the Osprey book on sabres, is that the same one?

Duncan Curtiss’ book on RAF Sabres has a list of all the pilots involved, and details of many of their service

I have found some accounts of the RAF and FAA involved in the conflict just not involved with the MIGs.

I had a friend who flew an FAA Sea Fury in the Korean conflict.

By his account, he spent the entire time hiding from Migs.

He felt it unfair that they had jets and he had a prop.

Moggy

I’m not familiar with that part of RAF history….
But based on the comments above, why wouldn’t RAF pilots take part in combat as exchange officers in Korea?

It was santioned by the U.N., seemingly without the legal ambiguity that might be present for RAF exchange officers in Vietnam or a US officer in the Falklands or the Suez campaign.

And the larger question, why did the RAAF have a unit in combat and not the RAF?

interesting

cheers for that! 😉

RAF Exchange Pilots

Pilots who on are exchange normally take part in any conflicts. I flew on exchange with an overseas airforce and although i cant say exactly what i did ….i spent a fair amount of time looking down from a great height at an airfield known as H2 near Bagdad. Sometimes the “other Air Force” will state that some conflicts are “no foreign” but generally we were one of the same. Hope this helps rgds SF

Ive just ran a search on Graham Hulse and found another thread on here titled

RAF Jet Kills

apparently Hulse had survived a meteor breakup whilst exchanged with the RAAF.

apologies if this is a daft question but…..

wouldnt the pilots be pulled from the exchange if the threat was their for them to see action?

I take it the pilots were already with the unit prior to the war or were they put there to get experience?

Does a list exist of the british pilots who flew with US units in the Korean War and how many british pilots were lost?

I don’t know about a complete list of names, I suspect RAFM will have it.

There were 17 x RAF pilot’s that competed exchange tours with USAF F-86 units during the Korean War. Five of these accounted for 6 MiG’s, two of them by one pilot, Graham Hulse, who was later KIA, as was another RAF pilot.

There were also, 32 RAF pilots that competed exchange combat tours with 77 Sqn RAAF flying Meteor F.8’s.