Busby Babes and Elizabethan

Apologies for resurrecting an old thread but I thought this was relevant:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/law-obituaries/6638039/His-Honour-Edgar-Fay.html

Yes, I was surprised to hear Harry Greg’s comment about the undercart being raised. The gear wasn’t retracted by all accounts, so I wondered if he meant that the wheels actually left the ground. Having said that, the official investigation into the crash was unable to find out if the mainwheels did actually leave the ground at any stage. At the time, none of the eye-wintesses (crew/passengers/ATC/groundstaff) questioned by the investigators were able to say for sure if it did get airborne momentarily…

I thought that both programmes were pretty good.
The first, on BBC4 was mainly about Pathe News archives which were being shown to Bobby Charlton, including never seen before colour footage of the team in action the year before.
Of course there were the usual howlers, team board Viscount, then we see a Boeing 707 in flight then a view out the window of a Viscount again.
The later programme featuring Harry Gregg going back to the scene again was much more poignant. He did make the point that the other victims should be remembered and not just the famous players.
He described seeing the undercarriage being raised before the plane hit the fence, house and fuel dump, I was very surprised about that, it must have been incredibly low, and Bobby Charlton did make the point that sitting facing backwards saved his life, I think that applied to the other survivors to.

Dramadoc

Didn’t get to see the dramadoc – hope it is repeated.
Am going to tune in to the BBC programme tonight though.

.
They certainly did go for a second and then a thrid (and final, fatal) take-off run after consulting with the Munich-based BEA engineer.
This was because it was known that engine pressure readings could fluctuate on the Ambassador in humid atmospheric conditions at certain elevations, so it was decided that a second attempt would be made. The second attempt began routinely, but when the port engine appeared to exceed its normal parameters again, the throttles were closed and the aircraft was allowed to roll to the end of the runway before being taxied back to its stand.
As the passengers disembarked, BEA’s local station engineer boarded the aircraft and discussed the situation with the crew. All believed that the excessive pressure fluctuations were being caused by the humidity/elevation problem, which the engineer said wasn’t critical. You know what happened next.
Just as an aside, although Captain Thain was exonerated by the British Fay Commission around ten years after the accident, the German authorities have never formally accepted the slush theory.
James Thain never flew again and the strain of his decade-long legal battle to clear his name must surely have taken its toll on him. He died in 1975 aged just 54. 🙁

Thanx for the info….very interesting and sad….I found the dramdoc portrayl of the engine trouble confusing and misleading, and Im a flight test engineer….it did seem to suggest that Busby should have said something…which he should not as it was a pilot/engineer decision. The pilot situation was sad too.

I watched the dramdoc crash run willing the aircraft not to crash….

Not sure if they really would have tried a second take off run after inexplicable power loss

.
They certainly did go for a second and then a thrid (and final, fatal) take-off run after consulting with the Munich-based BEA engineer.
This was because it was known that engine pressure readings could fluctuate on the Ambassador in humid atmospheric conditions at certain elevations, so it was decided that a second attempt would be made. The second attempt began routinely, but when the port engine appeared to exceed its normal parameters again, the throttles were closed and the aircraft was allowed to roll to the end of the runway before being taxied back to its stand.
As the passengers disembarked, BEA’s local station engineer boarded the aircraft and discussed the situation with the crew. All believed that the excessive pressure fluctuations were being caused by the humidity/elevation problem, which the engineer said wasn’t critical. You know what happened next.
Just as an aside, although Captain Thain was exonerated by the British Fay Commission around ten years after the accident, the German authorities have never formally accepted the slush theory.
James Thain never flew again and the strain of his decade-long legal battle to clear his name must surely have taken its toll on him. He died in 1975 aged just 54. 🙁

Rockteer…………

Re: your quest for info. had another idea which may be worth following up. Not a “footy” man myself but believe Man United have a museum, guess it will have curatorial staff of some kind. They may be able to point you in the right direction. Just thought………….

Planemike

Watching Bobby Charlton on Monday night’s programme about Munich, he made the comment that he was seated facing the rear of the plane – I wonder if he realises that this probably saved his life. Were most of the survivors seated accordingly ? – we’ll probably never know. I was 11 years old at the time, and this event really saddened me as my brother and I had watched these players against Luton some six weeks earlier.

I too find it sad that they forget the other victims…always seems the case (witness 9/11 and the DH110 accident where they forgot the hapless FTO for two examples).
The drama documentary is disappointing with the blatant Antonov cockpit complete with Russian dials. Not sure if they really would have tried a second take off run after inexplicable power loss. Certainly heavy snow and ice gives many problems to aircraft.

Powerful stuff…..

I think that you’ll find that on the BBC documentary tonight that Harry Gregg saved a babies life, I’m sure that the other victims will be remembered, some aspects of the media aren’t all that bad.

I too find it sad that they forget the other victims…always seems the case (witness 9/11 and the DH110 accident where they forgot the hapless FTO for two examples).
The drama documentary is disappointing with the blatant Antonov cockpit complete with Russian dials. Not sure if they really would have tried a second take off run after inexplicable power loss. Certainly heavy snow and ice gives many problems to aircraft.

Powerful stuff…..

uktv history at 4pm today 1hr program
the munich air disaster

thanks for tips about the progs tonight too

cheers

Thanks Pete, I’d wondered why a City man was on board – it wasn’t made clear on the radio. I do recall, though, that Mrs Swift lived opposite Mrs Busby, and neighbours were running bulletins across the road from house to house as the news came in, and the awful truth unfolded – I’m sure a much more tight connection to the city of Manchester itself than would be the case today.

I’m not a football fan by any means, and neither are my parents, and I wasn’t born until 1971 yet, even with a background like that, I don’t remember not knowing about Munich – that’s how deep it went. Perhaps Diana is the closest thing since?

We’d better leave this now – I’m turning it into a General Discussion topic!

Rest in peace, all of you – footballers or not.

Adrian

Indeed. Two weeks ago the reporting on Radio 5 of the build-up to the Manchester derby was giving the number of people killed and injured, and interviewed the daughter of (Frank?) Swift, the one Man City player killed on the plane.

Yesterday and today – eight Man U players killed… No mention of anyone else. Very sad, especially as I believe the investigation into the aquaplaning eventually led to improvements in safety which have doubtless saved many lives.

Adrian
(sorry, Rocketeer, felt it had to be said. Good luck with your project, though!)

Frank Swift at the time was a former Man City player who was on board in his role as sports writer for a local paper.
Tonight there are two programmes about the incident tonight, 10:40 BBC 1 where Harry Gregg, the goalie goes back to the scene of the crash for the first time, could be very poignant, also BBC4 at 10:00 is another programme.
The other night Albert Scanlon was talking about the incident on ‘The One Show’ which was very moving.
Many of the surviving players were never the same again, only Bobby Charlton seemed to reach the heights of greatness that the others deserved, and would have aspired to, don’t try to contact him, being a very retrospective, emotional man, I doubt whether he wants to talk about it.
If you Google the incident, there is an awful lot of info out there about the crash.
If you are interested in football or not, watch the beginning of the England match tonight on BBC1 at 7:30, I gather they are having a minutes silence with the pictures of the dead players being shown on giant screens, it could be an emotional moment.
I remember the incident well, despite not being Man U supporters, everyone where I lived in Nottingham was shocked at the time, different age, different feelings towards your adversity.
The year after our team Forest went on to win the FA Cup, doubt whether they would have done it without that tradegy occuring the year before.

Yes,it is sad about the loss of football players,but there has been very little mention of the aircrew in the media,particularly the struggle of many years for Captain Thain,to be cleared of blame. The accident was due to aqua-planing on slush. Tests were done at RAE Bedford using a Dan-Air Ambassador as part of the investigation some years later ?

Indeed. Two weeks ago the reporting on Radio 5 of the build-up to the Manchester derby was giving the number of people killed and injured, and interviewed the daughter of (Frank?) Swift, the one Man City player killed on the plane.

Yesterday and today – eight Man U players killed… No mention of anyone else. Very sad, especially as I believe the investigation into the aquaplaning eventually led to improvements in safety which have doubtless saved many lives.

Adrian
(sorry, Rocketeer, felt it had to be said. Good luck with your project, though!)

Thanx for the amazing help so far! Excellent.

Yes,it is sad about the loss of football players,but there has been very little mention of the aircrew in the media,particularly the struggle of many years for Captain Thain,to be cleared of blame. The accident was due to aqua-planing on slush. Tests were done at RAE Bedford using a Dan-Air Ambassador as part of the investigation some years later ?

Busby Babes

I know that the team had used scheduled flights for the previous round’s game (Prague via Amsterdam if I remember correctly) and, due to those being disrupted, they ended up getting home with just a few hours to spare before thay had to set off by road to play Birmingham in the league.
Because of that delay and subsequent disruption, Man Utd decided to charter their own aircraft for the next round…and we all know what happened next:(
It is ironic to think that had the flights gone well when travelling for the previous round, they almost certainly wouldn’t have bothered to charter their own a/c for Belgrade…
Regarding other a/c they had flown in, I believe that the team had flown with BEA on a charter flight to Spain less than a year before the accident. I also think (not 100% sure) that Captain Ken Rayment, who died in hospital a few days after the Munich crash had also been one of the pilots on that Spanish trip. I think I can find out for you, but it might take me a couple of weeks…

cheers PM

Worth a hunt around but I would have thought the chances would rather slim. Air travel was much less commonplace then.

I do know of someone who may know the answer, the guy document the history of Manchester Airport in great detail. When I see him I will try to remember to ask him.

Planemike………..

cheers