CAA rules and concerns about Airshows

I seem to recall the BBMF will not fly in formation with none ex military civilian pilots, I wonder why that is..??

I will leave you to figure that out..

Although some while ago now but the lanc has flown in formation with Sally B and Pink Lady together and on another occasion with Sally B on her own.
On either occasion I believe it was with civilian pilots that were not ex military.

Still struggling to think of a ‘crap’ UK based warbird pilot in that community because of his money……..

I can think of one.

The BBMF will fly with civilian warbird pilots, plenty of examples to list from last year with the BoB 75th , they are just very selective who they fly with.
Still struggling to think of a ‘crap’ UK based warbird pilot in that community because of his money……..

Although I cannot recall the pilots involved other than Peter Teichmann in his Hurricane, but in both these cases civilian pilots flew with Battle Of Britain Memorial Flight.

BBMF Aircraft flying with civilian pilots at Royal International Air Tattoo 2015

Hurricane 4 ship at RIAT 2015 by Martin Stitchener, on Flickr

and Biggin Hill Hardest Day 2015

Biggin Hill Battle of Britain 75th Anniversary Tribute “The Hardest Day” by Martin Stitchener, on Flickr

I think you will find all the Rolls pilots are Ex military, the Lanc pilot was too. I don’t know about the hangar 11 one.

Think about it when at Duxford and they do the mass flypast etc, the BBMF are always in formation together, normally at the back.

I seem to recall the BBMF will not fly in formation with none ex military civilian pilots, I wonder why that is..??

I will leave you to figure that out..

Was the Canadian Lancaster flown by civilians or ex military?

I seem to recall the BBMF will not fly in formation with none ex military civilian pilots, I wonder why that is..??

Not true.

I can think of one occasion off the top of my head where the BBMF has flown in formation with a non-military pilot. One of the PR Mk.XIX’s was flown in a Vic formation along with the Rolls Royce PR Mk.XIX and the Hangar 11 PR Mk.XI flown by her non-military owner.

What an extraordinarily silly comment, obviously laced with a large spoonful of sour grapes.
I think you will find that most UK warbird accidents fatal or otherwise, involved military or ex military pilots.
I doubt whether you are qualified to judge a good pilot from a ‘crappy’ one anyway.

Sour grapes?, not in the slightest, one was simply trying to put across that the argument that civilian pilots may not have the fast jet experience that a military pilot would have, the opposite could be said about RAF pilots not having the amount of piston training a civilian pilot may have behind them, I posted that to simply to counter the argument that perhaps civilian pilots shouldn’t fly fast jets. And where an RAF pilot has a tough course to qualify as a fast jet pilot and onto the Spit, a civilian just needs a big wad of cash to fly a Spit.

I seem to recall the BBMF will not fly in formation with none ex military civilian pilots, I wonder why that is..??

I will leave you to figure that out..

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I can very easily think of a number of examples. Mainly, but not exclusively, in the US.

I would suspect the more relaxed view to airworthiness requirements has a major part to do with that. The best pilot in the world isn’t able to repair his aircraft in flight if something that was recommended to be changed at a set point or a procedure/check that was defined to be carried out at a set time wasn’t carried out because the regulator did not insist on it. I do not wish to see the death of airshows, the death of ex military war birds, Piston or Jet, but I can see the reasoning behind the CAA decisions. Does anyone think they are not listening to the AAIB and the AAIB have actually hasn’t told them anything of their findings from both Shoreman and The Carfest accidents? If they have to employ more staff to deal with the updated requirements, the money to pay them must come from somewhere.

More

http://www.aerosociety.com/News/Insight-Blog/4100/Dogfight-over-UK-airshows-uintensifies

You say about lack of experience on fast jets, one could say the same is also relevant to piston fighters, unlike their civilian counterparts that may have hundreds of hours on Piston aircraft qualifying for their ATPLs before flying warbirds, the BBMF pilots will probably have 60 hrs on the Tutor possibly years before prior to joining, the rest will be Tuccano and jets. A different kettle of fish in comparison.

It really annoys me when you have civilian “Spitfire pilots” and everyone says how great she or he is… They can be the crapiest pilots out there but because they fly a Spitfire etc everyone assumes they are good when in fact the only common denominator is simply the size of their wallet.

What an extraordinarily silly comment, obviously laced with a large spoonful of sour grapes.
I think you will find that most UK warbird accidents fatal or otherwise, involved military or ex military pilots.
I doubt whether you are qualified to judge a good pilot from a ‘crappy’ one anyway.

I can’t think of anyone offhand who has written off a warbird because the total in their wallet exceeded the total of their talent.

I can very easily think of a number of examples. Mainly, but not exclusively, in the US.

More

http://www.aerosociety.com/News/Insight-Blog/4100/Dogfight-over-UK-airshows-uintensifies

You say about lack of experience on fast jets, one could say the same is also relevant to piston fighters, unlike their civilian counterparts that may have hundreds of hours on Piston aircraft qualifying for their ATPLs before flying warbirds, the BBMF pilots will probably have 60 hrs on the Tutor possibly years before prior to joining, the rest will be Tuccano and jets. A different kettle of fish in comparison.

It really annoys me when you have civilian “Spitfire pilots” and everyone says how great she or he is… They can be the crapiest pilots out there but because they fly a Spitfire etc everyone assumes they are good when in fact the only common denominator is simply the size of their wallet.

Don’t forget the BBMF guys will have intensive training on the Chipmunk once accepted for the flight then will step up to the Harvard, all being well the Hurricane awaits then after a suitable period, the ‘baby’ Spitfires.
Out of season ,the BBMF pilots will keep current on the Chipmunk including practicing PFL’s at speeds more akin to the Spits and Hurricanes.
Additionally the BBMF Chipmunk is flown from the rear seat to acclimatise the pilots to the poor view that awaits them on the warbirds and they will also learn to hold the stick right back whilst on the ground in the Chipmunk (even though not necessary in the Chippie) to get in the right habits for the bigger warbirds that may nose over .
It should be remembered that whilst the prospective BBMF pilot is starting out with little or no piston or tail wheel experience they are exceptionally talented aviators often ex Reds and used to the RAF building block approach to training.
As for the ‘crappiest’ civvy pilot in a warbird, I can’t think of anyone offhand who has written off a warbird because the total in their wallet exceeded the total of their talent.
We are fortunate to have the most consistent collection of warbird pilots anywhere , whether that same consistency has been evident in the ex mil jet flying fraternity is open to debate.

More

http://www.aerosociety.com/News/Insight-Blog/4100/Dogfight-over-UK-airshows-uintensifies

You say about lack of experience on fast jets, one could say the same is also relevant to piston fighters, unlike their civilian counterparts that may have hundreds of hours on Piston aircraft qualifying for their ATPLs before flying warbirds, the BBMF pilots will probably have 60 hrs on the Tutor possibly years before prior to joining, the rest will be Tuccano and jets. A different kettle of fish in comparison.

It really annoys me when you have civilian “Spitfire pilots” and everyone says how great she or he is… They can be the crapiest pilots out there but because they fly a Spitfire etc everyone assumes they are good when in fact the only common denominator is simply the size of their wallet.

Don’t let me put you off Charlie but if you have a trek there and back it may disappoint.

A quick point on tightening up the DA’s ,this can only be a good thing.
Just because you were in the services 20 years ago doesn’t mean you can get away with displaying a demanding aircraft with relatively few hours on type today.
Contrast this with the RAF demo pilots who have to be very experienced on type and often instructors.
During the season they will maintain currency with ISP’s whether they fly King Airs,Hawks or Tiffies.
In addition to this they will be closely monitored throughout the work up and the season itself.
They would have been carefully selected from the pilots on the squadron for not only their flying ability but their temperament.
It’s no coincidence the CAA have tightened up the DA system after last year.

I was surprised that the currency requirements were not tightened up. I was shocked to hear how many hours on type the shoreham pilot actually had. His day job was nowhere like the same flying as displaying the Hunter. One has heard rumours of display flying of intermediate jets not being to the same standard as a military display (that is not surprising in the slightest). Currency is a big part of that IMHO. Howhere that is an opinion on the past in general, not a reason for Shoreman or Oulton Park, one awaits the full AAIB report on both.

Don’t let me put you off Charlie but if you have a trek there and back it may disappoint.

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Much appreciated – thank you.

It’s no coincidence the CAA have tightened up the DA system after last year.

Indeed

It is also noteworthy that they have introduced a system of post-show reporting back to them from the display organisers.

I have been wondering whether to “bucket list” it, for old times sake. I attended every show there from 1949 to 1962 when it went biennial and then a fair few between 1962 and about 1980. But not since. It holds many marvellous memories but from what you say it sounds as though I might be rather disappointed. It will be a trek to get there and back!!

Don’t let me put you off Charlie but if you have a trek there and back it may disappoint.

A quick point on tightening up the DA’s ,this can only be a good thing.
Just because you were in the services 20 years ago doesn’t mean you can get away with displaying a demanding aircraft with relatively few hours on type today.
Contrast this with the RAF demo pilots who have to be very experienced on type and often instructors.
During the season they will maintain currency with ISP’s whether they fly King Airs,Hawks or Tiffies.
In addition to this they will be closely monitored throughout the work up and the season itself.
They would have been carefully selected from the pilots on the squadron for not only their flying ability but their temperament.
It’s no coincidence the CAA have tightened up the DA system after last year.

Beermat – I think what is more telling here is what she didn’t say. Anything even remotely amounting to an opinion on the issue.

Democracy in (in)action right there. Amanda Milling must assume that other people cannot understand a CAA press release and it needs explaining by a clever MP.

I have been wondering whether to “bucket list” it, for old times sake. I attended every show there from 1949 to 1962 when it went biennial and then a fair few between 1962 and about 1980. But not since. It holds many marvellous memories but from what you say it sounds as though I might be rather disappointed. It will be a trek to get there and back!!