Camel and Spit in formation

I have a couple of 160s, and am building a Nieuport 28 replica to use one of them. Maybe a big British magazine will sponsor a trip to England for it when it’s done…

By the way, a good friend of mine over here used to own your Cloudster I think, Mike Cilurso?

That’s right. He sold it over here so the motor went to an Avro 504. It has a VERY nice 145 on it now and flies really well.

Send him my regards,

MH

NOW it makes sense to me! Thanks for that (in one posting and a weekend at La Ferte I have learned more about rotaries that I had previously known!).

At La Ferte the N.28 was running on 1/8th power and it sounded like a crowscarer being let off every turn of the prop. You could feel the shock on your chest and I was standing perhaps 40 feet away.

There is a chance the Mem Flt might be getting a 160 Gnome . . .

I was thinking the very same Melv, learnt more about Rotaries in this post than i thought i would ever know, thanks for the info Baldeagle.

I have a couple of 160s, and am building a Nieuport 28 replica to use one of them. Maybe a big British magazine will sponsor a trip to England for it when it’s done…

By the way, a good friend of mine over here used to own your Cloudster I think, Mike Cilurso?

The 100 Gnome has no such device, and is a true “on-or-off” rotary.

There is some good film of a Fokker Eindekker taking off in WW1 where he applies full power and takes off about 25 degrees from where he started. The 100 Oberursel (for the uninitiated) being essentially the same as the 100 Gnome.

NOW it makes sense to me! Thanks for that (in one posting and a weekend at La Ferte I have learned more about rotaries that I had previously known!).

At La Ferte the N.28 was running on 1/8th power and it sounded like a crowscarer being let off every turn of the prop. You could feel the shock on your chest and I was standing perhaps 40 feet away.

There is a chance the Mem Flt might be getting a 160 Gnome . . .

The 160 Gnome, which is also a monosoupape (single valve) like the 100 Gnome, doesn’t cut out a certain number of cylinders, it interrupts the firing order, running at full power, half power, 1/4 power, or 1/8 power. For half power instead of 1-3-5-7-9-2-4-6-8 (full power) it fires 1, skips 3, fires 5, skips 7, and so on. All cylinders are firing at all times (hopefully). At 1/8 power it sounds like it’s on 1 cylinder, but a different one is firing each time, and it takes 16 revolutions of the prop to fire them all.
The unit below, seen split in half, accomplishes the above, through a selector switch in the cockpit, positions 4-3-2-1-0, 4 is full power, and 0 is off. A set of brushes contact the brass disc seen in the RH part of the unit, and it works through the RH magneto, so the left one must be shut off (with the blip button) to use the “throttling” (for lack of a better term) function of the right mag.
The 100 Gnome has no such device, and is a true “on-or-off” rotary.

Aha I know for a fact that it wasnt you with the Memorial Flight – it was a Mister His Sock – Guards arrest the imposter!

Actually I must own to thinking the same as Blue Max, I thought blipping was the way you controlled a rotary – but you do indeed live and learn – thanks for the gen

TT

Over the years I have learned a bit about rotaries from the guys in the Memorial Flight and it was interesting to learn a little more this weekend. Apparantly each Le Rhone or Clerget (possibly both) were supplied with three different needles for the carb so that you could adjust the jet. This is only a five minute job. If it is not ideal then you resort to adjusting both fuel and air when flying. Baptiste Salis was flying the Memorial Flight Morane AI at the weekend and was setting it to full power and putting up with some backfiring on idle as he could do this on one lever. Friday night we had Jean Salis in the Morane 138, powered by a 80hp Le Rhone, in formation with Baptiste in the MF Morane AI and Edmund Salis in the Salis collection AI. They were quite happy in formation with the slower Le Rhone powered 138.

Desmond St Cyrien used to set 80hp Le Rhones so that they had a rich cut after take off and said this was what WW1 pilots used to put up with. I never really believed that and I have never seen Salis pilots get a rich cut, after all you don’t want to have to start dealing with engine issues right after take off.

The best of the rotaries to operate is the Clerget followed by the Le Rhones and then the Gnomes. The Monosoupapes are, apparently, monsters.

My only rotary time is running the Brooklands Camel just once for 6 minutes. I set it for start, found idle and then full power and found that even with an engine that may not have been set ideally I could vary power around the top third of the rev range and since this is where most of the power is developed I would have been reasonably happy in the air.

The blip switch (which on a Le Rhone or Clerget cuts all the cylinders) is useful when taxying but you really feel the aeroplane lurch and so can’t be good for the airframe!

Stuart Goldspink outclimbed a 450 Stearman on five cylinders in Guy Black’s one!

The fire problem is not that which goes into the cylinders, if it doesn’t get used there it is forced out and by then is not liquid, being a fuel/air mixture. There is enough wind through the cowling to disperse it when in flight. The problem was if an inlet valve got stuck open the spark could ignite the mixture in the crankcase!

The insistence of some people that rotaries only run on full throttle (no offence Matt) is funny as how did aircraft formate without throttle control?

Incidentally, had great fun flying on Friday night with FOUR rotaries in the air!

I have to admit that i always thought that they were governed by altering the number of cylinders that were firing rather than having a throttle control as we know it on a conventional engine, there you go, live and never stop learning 😀

Isn’t it also true that when the ignition is cut to the cylinders (like on the 160 Gnome) the fuel still flows to the cylinders. I seem to remember reading that it wasn’t a good idea to run it for any extended period on less than 9 cylinders, as several Nieuport 28s had exciting fires when the fuel collected in the cowling and was ignited…!

Stuart Goldspink outclimbed a 450 Stearman on five cylinders in Guy Black’s one!

The fire problem is not that which goes into the cylinders, if it doesn’t get used there it is forced out and by then is not liquid, being a fuel/air mixture. There is enough wind through the cowling to disperse it when in flight. The problem was if an inlet valve got stuck open the spark could ignite the mixture in the crankcase!

The insistence of some people that rotaries only run on full throttle (no offence Matt) is funny as how did aircraft formate without throttle control?

Incidentally, had great fun flying on Friday night with FOUR rotaries in the air!

Bod gottit wrong SHOCKER!

TT

Isn’t it also true that when the ignition is cut to the cylinders (like on the 160 Gnome) the fuel still flows to the cylinders. I seem to remember reading that it wasn’t a good idea to run it for any extended period on less than 9 cylinders, as several Nieuport 28s had exciting fires when the fuel collected in the cowling and was ignited…!

Sorry Matt, that is untrue on many rotaries. The 160 Gnome on the NZ came has a choice of 1, 3, 5, 7 or all nince cylinders. Le Rhones and Clergets can be set up to operate more or less like a normal engine providing the needle and jet are properly matched. the bip swicth on these cuts all ignition.

The only one that had to be fully controlled by the blip was the monosoupape.

😮

There is no throttle with a rotary, its all or nothing with a blip switch that cuts out all or some of the cylinders 😉

Sorry Matt, that is untrue on many rotaries. The 160 Gnome on the NZ came has a choice of 1, 3, 5, 7 or all nince cylinders. Le Rhones and Clergets can be set up to operate more or less like a normal engine providing the needle and jet are properly matched. the bip swicth on these cuts all ignition.

The only one that had to be fully controlled by the blip was the monosoupape.

I can well believe it. Just look at the way the poor old Camel is jumping up and down after they’ve started it!

Congratulations to Andy Sephton for his spirited display in the Sopwith Triplane at OW yesterday. One of the highlights of the day!

I think that was the most spirited display i have ever seen in the Triplane, the low pass was amasingly low. And then there was the pass showing the underside very well. It all made for some superb photos.

I think the thoughts on the matter at Old Warden go along the lines that the blip switch puts a lot of strain on the engine and therefore is used ‘sparingly’.
A.

I can well believe it. Just look at the way the poor old Camel is jumping up and down after they’ve started it!

Congratulations to Andy Sephton for his spirited display in the Sopwith Triplane at OW yesterday. One of the highlights of the day!

Just got time at last to take this in. Fantastic stuff – and as for Gene de Marco’s taxiing the Camel on the blipper switch – amazing. The conventional wisdom is usually wheel it to the end of the runway, start, then chuck it and run!!

I wonder whether it’ll give Mr Sephton at Old Warden some ideas!:diablo:

I think the thoughts on the matter at Old Warden go along the lines that the blip switch puts a lot of strain on the engine and therefore is used ‘sparingly’.
Andy gave a talk at the SVAS AGM a couple of weeks ago where he spent some time explaining rotary engine operation.
A.

Just got time at last to take this in. Fantastic stuff – and as for Gene de Marco’s taxiing the Camel on the blipper switch – amazing. The conventional wisdom is usually wheel it to the end of the runway, start, then chuck it and run!!

I wonder whether it’ll give Mr Sephton at Old Warden some ideas!:diablo:

Actually saw this 🙂

There is no throttle with a rotary, its all or nothing with a blip switch that cuts out all ot some of the cylinders 😉

there actually is a sort of throttle, which is the fuel control, and together with the magnetos it allows to manage the power, but still it sounds too abrupt.. When turning the engine on, it sounds like he’s giving gas to a sport car!i dont know much about rotary managing, so I guess that’s the way it is, but the french Fokker sounded more regular..

Alex