Camel At Old Warden

What a shame, the N28 goes to the US and ends up grounded. Bring it back to OW where it would be with people who understand these old machines and look after them with the care and love they need.

Hi Mirrors, thanks for the reply and for the PM. I will be in touch v.soon and it is good that the NAW and Memorial Flight now have some contact.

Originally posted by Mirrors
Hi Melvyn and Andy,
We have been given copies of all of the information gathered by Cross & Cockade International DH2 Project, the result of very thorough research by a team headed by Barrington Gray. This includes copies of 3 original 1/8th Scale GA drawings, an Airco “Principal Dimensions” drawing, 62 pages of data for an unpublished Airco spare parts list and some original factory photos of major sub-assemblies. There are many other original documents, including dimensioned aerofoil cross sections, fuel system schematics and rigging instructions. Mr. Gray has compiled a chronological list of modifications as detailed in official RFC communications, letters from RFC Pilots etc. There is a non disclosure agreement in place.

Well I am glad that they are co-operating with you. We spoke to them and I was completely unimmpressed with their attitude and they were quite rude to me. In the end I wouldn’t have cared if they had drawings and a drawer full of spare parts, I wouldn’t have wanted to deal with them AND (at that time) I was a C&C member!. I can’t understand this ‘non-disclosure’ thing. They seem petrified that someone is going to publish details of the DH2 before they do and they will lose out, yet they would be lucky if their work would cover production costs when published as there is not that much interest in World War one aviation to make it sell. It struck me as a case of “it’s my football and you’re not playing”.

The project is currently at a feasibility stage, and this includes the creation of a full set of drawings by Trevor Foreman, now at an advanced stage. A “Stress scheme” created by a volunteer from BAE Systems has already been approved by the powers that be, and full stressing of the airframe design will occur in due course.

It will not be possible to say how near the new drawings are to the originals, unless a set turn up. The DH2 was, however, an early and uncomplicated design and with the level of original and contemporary data available, we should not be too far away.

I agree, my only concerns is that whilst you can get dimensions more or less right (certainly right enough so that they cannot be disproven!) what you don’t get is material spec and things suck as tube wall thicknesses and stuff. This should not matter too much if you are stressing everything (way outside the budget of the Mem Flight) but if the rear pylon of the DH2 is steel tube then you could have a significant weight and balance problem on an aeroplane that was probably tail heavy to start with. It could well be that what was acceptable in 1916 is not acceptable now and the weight increases might cause further problems.

On the subject of why build a DH2, I could run out of space! Historically, the DH2 superior to its main rival, the Fokker monoplane,

perhaps, I’d prefer to wait until we can fly both as there is a lot of tosh talked about ‘superiority’ of one type over another. I laugh when I see people referring to the “nimble” SPAD XIII. It is NOT nimble but it is fast. Dogfight a DVII in a SPAD and you lose your advantage and, as well all know, a lost advantage is often followed by a wooden cross! This is one of the things we have learnt with the Mem Flight, a lot of what was written about these aeroplanes is flawed by lack of experience, winner’s bias and rehashed research. The EIII was based on the Morane H and that is a good flying aeroplane, Salis has one and loves it. I wonder if we could persuade Javier Arango to bring his 100hp Gnome engined EIII over. . . .

and was flown by notable pilots including Lanoe Hawker and James McCudden. A major front line fighter, it equipped 24, 29 and 32 squadrons amongst others, claiming many victories. The Shuttleworth collection do not have a WW1 “Pusher fighter” and so it would fill a very large gap, and yes, we have picked the colour scheme!

Robert M.

I thought picking the colours was one of the first things you did! We have the colours of the Strutter chosen and (I think) the DVII. I also understand about the pusher although having the heavy bit behind the pilot is a worry, inertia being what it is and all that. we seriously thought about a pusher and may still do one but we have enough on the go at the moment.

For the benefit of the forum I want to restate:

I thoroughly support what the NAW are doing and didn’t want to appear as to be pouring scorn on it, but I was concerened not just about the appearance of any finished DH2 but the integrity of what is inside and this comes from a lot fo years experience dealing with this class of aircraft.

Melvyn Hiscock

Hear,hear Robert. It will be great to see a DH 2 airborne.

(On a personal note, my great uncle, 2 Lt. A.J. Pearson MC RFC, was shot down and killed by Manfred von Richtofen on 9 April 1917 while flying DH 2 9854 with 29 Squadron. )

Robert
thanks for the very detailed reply.
I’d be very happy to see a DH2 at Old Warden.
I’m 41 years old and I’ve been a regular visitor there since I was seven.
So I’ll be there on the day it first flies–trusty camera in hand.
Old Warden can never have enough Great War aircraft as far as I’m concerned.
Thanks to NAW the collection keeps growing–so a big personal thank you to people there.
All the best
Andy

Hi Melvyn and Andy,
I have been an active member of NAW since 1995, and can expand a little on the DH2 situation. We have been given copies of all of the information gathered by Cross & Cockade International DH2 Project, the result of very thorough research by a team headed by Barrington Gray. This includes copies of 3 original 1/8th Scale GA drawings, an Airco “Principal Dimensions” drawing, 62 pages of data for an unpublished Airco spare parts list and some original factory photos of major sub-assemblies. There are many other original documents, including dimensioned aerofoil cross sections, fuel system schematics and rigging instructions. Mr. Gray has compiled a chronological list of modifications as detailed in official RFC communications, letters from RFC Pilots etc. There is a non disclosure agreement in place.

The project is currently at a feasibility stage, and this includes the creation of a full set of drawings by Trevor Foreman, now at an advanced stage. A “Stress scheme” created by a volunteer from BAE Systems has already been approved by the powers that be, and full stressing of the airframe design will occur in due course.

It will not be possible to say how near the new drawings are to the originals, unless a set turn up. The DH2 was, however, an early and uncomplicated design and with the level of original and contemporary data available, we should not be too far away.

On the subject of why build a DH2, I could run out of space! Historically, the DH2 superior to its main rival, the Fokker monoplane, and was flown by notable pilots including Lanoe Hawker and James McCudden. A major front line fighter, it equipped 24, 29 and 32 squadrons amongst others, claiming many victories. The Shuttleworth collection do not have a WW1 “Pusher fighter” and so it would fill a very large gap, and yes, we have picked the colour scheme!

Robert M.

I’ve just looked at the NAW website and it does say that the DH2 project is at the feasibility study stage. It also says a full set of drawings will need to be produced.
Is that feasible??
Is a DH2 the most desirable aircraft to build? Now this is subjective but I’d rather see a British two seater–RE8 or BE series.
Do drawings exist for these? There are at least surviving airframes for these.
Thoughts anyone.
All the best
Andy

Originally posted by David Burke
Melvyn – Skysport have a D.H 2 underway which will be in the air I guess in three years time. The lack of plans will require a degree of re-engineering but that can be accomplished. They have her 100hp Gnome already.

But based only on photographs and that can be notoriously difficult to do. I have seen Tim’s one and I know that it is up for sale. I think three years is a optimistic estimate. Without drawings you cannot even be sure of the wingspan, nacelle length, nacelle cross section etc. There was a Cross and Cockade group who were researching the DH2 but they didn’t want to actually make the damn thing have any information!

The Redfern (or was it Ron Sands anyhow, US plans built) one was a guesswork job and the ex-Leisure Sport one was a set of spare Sopwith camel wing panels added to a lash-up fuselage. About as accurate as the Bianchi EIII!

You can assume a certain amount and if you can get hold of the parts book, and a number of parts would have been standard RFC issue, but we know from experience that without drawings and a reference example, neither of which exist, it gets very difficult. We should have had the 504 ready by now but lack of drawings and 21 miles of water between the workshops and the only examples makes it difficult.

reverse engineering is only strictly possible if you havbe something to reverse engineer (like the LVG in our case) otherwise it is guess work.

Don’t get me wrong, I wish them all the best and it’ll be great to see but they won’t be able to claim it as ‘late production’ like the triplane!

MH

Hi David,
Who is Skysport’s DH.2 being built for?

Melvyn – Skysport have a D.H 2 underway which will be in the air I guess in three years time. The lack of plans will require a degree of re-engineering but that can be accomplished. They have her 100hp Gnome already.

Originally posted by Andy in Beds
What sort of LVG Melvyn??
Andy

as MK959 has said it is a CVI. The Musée de l’Air have one in storage and we were offered an engine to build a copy around. It was always fun to see lists of surviving WW1 aircraft leave out the Mdl’A one! It came to them from Brussells, I think, way back in te 1960s ans still had the original fabric.

The engine offer got withdrawn after we had started so we now have a complete set of frames and a lot of fittings. If we can find a 230 Benz then it gets reinstated. The Flight has always worked on using engines as original as possible so our Dr1 does not have a Warner but a 130hp Clerget (see thread Dirty Fokker). Incidentally I forgot the Avro 504K replica that we are working on too!

Of the projects, the DVII and the Albatross are most advanced and the Strutter (a genuine WW1 French-built aeroplane!) is following behind. Drawings for the 504 are proving hard to get but it will happen.

Actually, that made me think. I don’t wish to ciriticise the NAW at all as their work is superb, but how are they going to do a DH2 as there are only two drawings that exist and both are GAs. When the Farnborough drwings were passed from there to the PRO some years ago someone took it upon themselves to ‘weed out’ the ones that were not needed and a lot were binned, including a complete set of DH2. At best there is going to be a lot of guess work. This is what sopped us making one a few years back. The drawings for the FE8 exist but the PRo wanted WAY too much money.

So, if you have a 230hp benz send it, in a plain brown envelope to: The Memorial Flight c/o Melv’s house and if you have anything on the DH2 send it to those chaps at the NAW.

Incidentally, if anyone from the NAW wants to get in touch privately then please do, the fact that te Mem flight and NAW are not currently in touch is silly.

Melvyn Hiscock

If I remeber, I will take my digital camera to the workshops on Tuesday night, and will upload some pictures of our Camel on Wednesday. A lot of assembly work has been performed on the fuselage, and the first wing is almost complete.

Robert M.

Andy,

According to their web site, it’s a LVG C VI.

See: http://memorial.flight.free.fr/Projetsuk.html

What sort of LVG Melvyn??
Andy

Originally posted by JDK
The Nieport 28 definitely went to Fort Rucker, not Kermit (though it does seem that everything ends up with Mr Weeks!). And it’s grounded there 🙁

It was great to see and the noisiest thing in the air for a while? Often likened to a ‘bunch of bird scarers going off’ It also flew at La Ferte Alais, too.

Meeelllvvvnnnn!!!!! Your input please:

Correct, the 28 went to Rucker and the Camel is at Mojave. The N28 was apparently the only aeroplane to get noise complaints when it flew at the Shuttleworth. They could also hear it at Old Warden when it flew at Henlow. In theory a 160hp engine but very powerful. The N28 outclimbed a 450hp Stearman when only using five of the available nine cylinders (you can choose how many instead of throttling it).

It did fly at La Ferte but the organisers (on those days an oxymoron!) failed to get it flying with the SPAD which would have been superb. I do remember hearing it do a test flight one evening. If you have ever seen Dawn Patrol (a lovely girl old Dawn) and thought the aircraft sounds were just too ‘Hollywood” rest assured, the N28 really does sound that rough.

Stuart Goldspink used to say he had double vision when he got out of it. He flew the Camel too.

Meanwhile apparently they put the undercarraige on my aeroplane in France today. Meanwhile I recovered the rudder on the Rearwin and made some interior trim. Will be doing a bit of painting tomorrow.

La Ferte is going to be fun in a couple of years. SPAD, DR1, Bleriot Militaire, Morane AI, Se5a, DVII, Albatross DIII, Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter and the LVG if only we can get an engine. Not bad for an association that has never had more than twenty-five members.

Memo to self: Get the Rearwin finished so you can get over there and claim your rightful mount . . .

MH

The Nieport 28 definitely went to Fort Rucker, not Kermit (though it does seem that everything ends up with Mr Weeks!). And it’s grounded there 🙁

It was great to see and the noisiest thing in the air for a while? Often likened to a ‘bunch of bird scarers going off’ It also flew at La Ferte Alais, too.

Meeelllvvvnnnn!!!!! Your input please:

The Pup driver’s view…

Camel At OW

Hi Ant
There must be a few of waiting for that day.
and beyond that a DH2!!–well so I’ve heard.
All the best
Andy

Cheers Andy.
Thanks to the efforts of the NAW guys,it shouldn’t be too long before we see an authentic Camel gracing OW’s skies again. 🙂

😀 Ask Eddie,the smart arse member LOL:D i think he knows a little bit about Sopwith Camels and others 😀

Camel again

and another.
Andy