Can Oscar II Be Converted As LACM Carrier ??

China acquires Russian carrier Varyag

Vishnu Som

Sunday, November 6, 2005 (New Delhi):

China has acquired the Varyag, a Soviet-era aircraft carrier which is several times larger than India’s INS Viraat or the second-hand carrier Gorshkov, that is being refurbished in Russia.

A Chinese front company called Chong Lot Travel Agency managed to buy the ship as scrap for US$ 20 million and towed it half way around the world, before placing it under high security in the Chinese naval base in Dalian.

Offer turned down?

During the 1990s, the Varyag – Russian for Viking – was being constructed in Nokolayev in the Black Sea. After the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1992, the ship went to Ukraine which had no need for it.

Ukraine offered the ship to Russia which could not afford it and then offered the ship to India for US$ 1.6 billion on the condition that remaining construction and fitting out of the warship was done at its Nikolayev facilities.

The Indian Navy conducted a feasibility study of the ship which did meet several of its technical requirements. However, the Navy rejected the ship on the grounds that it was in a condition of disrepair.

“At a time when we were certain that the Vikrant could not be kept in service for any period of time, India looked at the possibility of getting a replacement and we looked at the former Soviet Union and their carriers because they were available and in addition to the Gorshkov which we have now contracted, the Varyag was considered.

“But my own recall is that after the initial assessment it was not a serious issue for us at that time because we didn’t have the funding support at that time,” said Commodore Uday Bhasker, defence analyst.

Now it’s being painted in Chinese colours. But according to sources, in 1994-1995, the ship was offered to the Indian Navy which refused and eventually opted for the Gorshkov in a deal worth upwards of US$ 1 billion.

But China clearly didn’t feel the same way and kept negotiating with the Ukrainians for years, who eventually agreed to sell the Varyag to the Chong Lot Travel Agency which said that it wanted to convert the vessel into a floating casino in Macau.

But according to sources, Chong Lot does not have any offices in Macau and in fact the company is a subsidiary of a firm based out of Hong Kong called Chinluck – the directors of which have had links with the Chinese Navy.

Advantage China

If the Chinese are able to successfully complete the refitting of the Varyag which does not have an engine or rudders, the ship will be very similar to the Kuznetsov.

Kuznetsov is the flagship of the Russian Navy – designed as a counter to the giant American aircraft carriers which have dominated the world’s oceans.

It will also be substantially more capable than the Gorshkov which India has bought from Russia.

The Varyag is 67,500 tonnes, substantially larger than the Gorshkov which, after refit will be substantially smaller at 44,570 tonnes.

The Varyag has a complement of 52 aircraft. The Gorshkov is not likely to carry more than 30-32.

The Varyag is likely to operate a variant of the Sukhoi-27 fighter which has a greater operating range and weapon carrying load than the MiG-29K jets the Gorshkov will have.

The Chinese acquisition of the Varyag is part of what is one of the largest and fastest growing fleet expansion plans since World War II and the acquisition of an aircraft carrier is being seen as a logical step forward in its naval evolution.

But naval analysts point out that buying an aircraft carrier is all very well but learning to operate it effectively may take several years.

Indeed it was Varyag offered to India back then. Pretty late to report the sale now though. Quite some rubbish and “ifs” in this article on aircraft and lay-out of Varyag. We still don’t know wheter she’s becoming a museum or a warship. Although most things do indicate a warship at the moment.

The upgrade I am suggesting would include the passive sensors being fitted to the Yakhont-M. Now considering the Yakhont-M will be test flown next year I very much doubt that comparable sensors had already been tried on earlier missiles. Added range and speed might not have been enough to justify retaining a missile that is otherwise an active weapon that gives away an attack early on in the attack. Using passive sensors, to combine a stealthy approach with very high speed might be a much better solution.

I heard they tried to sell Kuznetsov to India before, but that the ship was denied by the Indian govt, any other news on this?

Kuz is just tooo large a ship for the IN , I doubt that even if she could be berthed at Mumbai may be karwar , But IN dosent seem to be interested in that ship just too large for her , Groshkov sized is what IN needs may be a 50000 tons ADS-2 will do her good.

Probably are you confusing with the Varyag offer , HMS Invincible would be a godd addition in the IN.

Those pictures are there check the naval forum on this siteAir Combat Information Group
It shows recent pictures of Moskva, the Black Sea Fleet flagship, being laden with Bazalt missiles (three at once, which basically means that those tubes were empty before, they only seem to receive missiles in batches, when the ship is empty). Vulkan looks different from Bazalt in configuration, but size is the same and so is the launcher. Difference lays in lay-out of wings and booster.

As for capability and threat, the main/largest threat to Russia would be China at the moment and then it would be most handy to have your three Slava’s together in Vladivostok as one Slava won’t be of much use.

the “capabilities” requirement depends on “requirements” and for now Russia has no need for carriers, so scrapping Kuznetsov (or selling her) would still be a good idea, indeed loss of capability, but it would still fit the requirement.

I heard they tried to sell Kuznetsov to India before, but that the ship was denied by the Indian govt, any other news on this?

Yet they didn’t. On the other hand, if they wanted to cut costs, better get rid of the Slava’s as they are the only three ships having Bazalt and they have to send the Bazalt missiles all over the country as all three are in a different fleet, a couple of 1000 miles away from each other.

Cost cuts are required , But cost cuts are not done over capability required to meet a situation, Just because the Russian would save few 100 million dollars every year by scrapping the Kuznetsov wouldnt mean they would do that.

Its always a country threat preception and strategic requirements which dictates its fleet numbers and the types to be operated over a period of time , Unless ofcourse the country is financially incapable of doing so .

May be the Slava’s are the better maintained ones required ones , so even though there are 3 such ships they need to be maintained.

Also how can one be very sure of the Vulkan upgrade has not been done on other ships , Any pics to prove and show how the upgraded Vulcan looks like(on the only platform it has been deployed ) compared to the newer pics of the slava , It would be interesting to compare.

What I meant with that is, if the Vulkan was a success, then they would most probably kept the subs and incorporated Vulkan on the other Slava class cruisers too. Yet they didn’t. On the other hand, if they wanted to cut costs, better get rid of the Slava’s as they are the only three ships having Bazalt and they have to send the Bazalt missiles all over the country as all three are in a different fleet, a couple of 1000 miles away from each other.
(should be said that those ships don’t really carry that many missiles anymore either). And there are a lot more useful cancellations to do if they wanted to save money. Smetliviy being one of those.

Politicians are rarely held in high regard for honesty in any country

True…But in Russia (if the report is correct) it seems that it is an extreme case..I thought Putin enjoyed much more popularity.

Garry such upgrades have been tried, Vulkan is just a Bazalt with a new booster and fuel, range is 750km, not that much of an edge over the original, neither has its speed been increased.

So there is already a history of doing this?

You mention a relative failure, I mentioned a success in the Kh-32. Perhaps an upgraded Granit might be one or the other, but personally I think an upgrade to a passive homing option that adds to its anti ship capability by adding a passive attack anti ship option as well as a land attack option will make it a rather more flexible and useful weapon.

Vulkan is only in service with Varyag too, the other submarines equiped with the missile have been taken out of service. So it wasn’t that much of a success.

Considering the state of the Russian Navy and the huge changes and lack of money they have had to deal with I don’t think the withdrawl of subs with a certain type of weapon can be immediately judged as evidence they were failures. As a cost cutting measure they might have been withdrawn simply because their capability was no longer considered necessary.

As for the Stingers etc. That is mostly because CIA is selling/giving them to their “allies” and not because they are stolen in large scale. It is mostly the Igla or RPG variants that get into wrong hands and they aren’t given by SVR…

The problem there is that every BMP-2 in the Soviet Army had a gripstock and 4 missiles as standard armament. They had almost as many MANPADS as they did ATGMs, and they had a lot of ATGMs. These weapons were kept in stores and many of these stores were removed from Russian control with the breakup of the Soviet Union. Much of the weapons the Chechens fought with were from stores based in Chechnia that were looted when law and order broke down.
Another aspect is that it is generally considered in the west that the Mujahideen in Afghanistan fought with weapons captured from the Soviets. The reality is that the vast majority of equipment used by the Afghans including rifles, HMGs, and RPGs, and very early on MANPADS (strela) were paid for by the US and made in China. Most of the early MANPADS were supplied via Israel from captured stocks from the arab countries and were mostly SA-7s.

Most Russians think whole state dishonest

Politicians are rarely held in high regard for honesty in any country.

Most Russians think whole state dishonest

MOSCOW (Reuters) – More than half of Russians think everyone in power is dishonest, a survey showed on Monday, from the president and parliament, to government and the courts.

“This goes a long way to explaining the colossal level of political apathy in society,” said Alexander Konovalov, president of the Institute for Strategic Assessments.

Just under one in three of the 1,600 people surveyed by ROMIR Monitoring called President Vladimir Putin honest, and the figure fell to just 5 percent for the government and 2 percent for the State Duma lower house of parliament.

The Duma is packed with members of the pro-Kremlin United Russia party and critics say many deputies rubber-stamp legislation while enjoying the perks of office.

Corruption is also endemic at all levels of Russian society, from traffic cops to tax officials. Transparency International ranked Russia joint 126th on its list of cleanest countries, on a par with Sierra Leone, Niger and Albania.

“People have faith in very little. That is the reality of our way of life,” Konovalov told Ekho Moskvy radio.
10/31/05 09:52

Well There is a Huge Black market Market for Stinger , Igla , Kornet , TOW ……….. You name it and you can get it at a cost.

Most of the Igla avaliable with the terrorist and not the sophisticated ones a-la “SA-18” But the older SA-7 , Not a military threat but certainly threat to civilian A/C.

There are elements in both US and Russian service willing to willy-nilly sell things for a cost , more to do with individual greed than an institutional practise by the CIA or SVR or FSB.

Read This [url]http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/?feed=TopNews&article=UPI-1-20051031-22…

Concern for every one

Garry such upgrades have been tried, Vulkan is just a Bazalt with a new booster and fuel, range is 750km, not that much of an edge over the original, neither has its speed been increased. I suppose for Granit it would make about the same possibilities, range around 1000km or slightly less should be possible. But nonetheless I don’t think Russia is considering that. Vulkan is only in service with Varyag too, the other submarines equiped with the missile have been taken out of service. So it wasn’t that much of a success.

As for the Stingers etc. That is mostly because CIA is selling/giving them to their “allies” and not because they are stolen in large scale. It is mostly the Igla or RPG variants that get into wrong hands and they aren’t given by SVR…

Stinger going missing isn’t really that much of a disaster as it doesn’t create a danger to 120 men (unless of course the plane that is shot down with the stinger is

Well it depends , If a stinger( for that matter any russian variant ) is fired at a 747 just while taking off and specially it it hits the fuel tank , It will certainly take 400 passenger on board to heavens.

In the worng hand Tow or Stinger can be quite dangerous
Never understimate the power of such Hand Held SAM.

Yes, Garry, plenty of those reports in other services too, but none in the nuclear submarine service.

I’ve reread the link you have posted and see no evidence that nuclear materials are being stolen. Stealing fuel rods without the correct protection means they wouldn’t get out of the base alive, and of course warheads are controled by the FSB.

(unless of course the plane that is shot down with the stinger is filled with 50 and crashes on another 70 men)

Or the plane shot down is a Boeing 747 and it is carrying 400 passengers.

So is this Granit-M a improved variant of Granit under development or is it already developed and operational. Never seen any mention of such a missile.

If you read my posts carefully I have stated that Granit-M is a potential upgrade of the Granit missile using technology already being developed for the Yakhont-M land attack export variant of the Onyx missile. Considering the improvements in missile technology since the Granit was designed a similar upgrade to the AS-6 that is leading to the Kh-32 AShM where speed has been increased from mach 3 to mach 4.5 and range has reportedly been doubled with new propellent (300-400km depending upon the flight profile leading to an estimated range of 600-800km for the Kh-32 depending upon the flight profile.)

Also can you explain what kind of Land Attck sensors these M variant carry and how can you improve its anti-carrier performance.

The Yakhont-M is supposed to be getting an IIR seeker to detect and identify land based targets in addition to its radar that can be used in active or passive modes depending upon the target. (ie it can be used for radar emitting targets like ships or radar sites, or non emitting large targets using IIR or radar and some form of inertial navigation system).

Yes, Garry, plenty of those reports in other services too, but none in the nuclear submarine service. A TOW or Stinger going missing isn’t really that much of a disaster as it doesn’t create a danger to 120 men (unless of course the plane that is shot down with the stinger is filled with 50 and crashes on another 70 men) or the bus that gets hit by the TOW is filled with 100 people and explodes killing another 20.

Granit-M does not exist, the closest to it would be Vulkan, used in Varyag.

So is this Granit-M a improved variant of Granit under development or is it already developed and operational. Never seen any mention of such a missile.

Can you throw some more light on the Granit-M.

Whats the speed of Granit-M ??

Also can you explain what kind of Land Attck sensors these M variant carry and how can you improve its anti-carrier performance.

I’m responding to Garry’s post, not to the Kh-101 idea. That’s why Oscar would have to come close, please read my ENTIRE post before commenting. I clearly mentioned those things there.

Garrys post includes Kh-101s… the Granits are kept for their original role and that role is expanded with land attack sensors (which should improve its anti carrier peroformance too), plus the similar upgrades the very similar AS-6 has gone through to become the Kh-32, with increased speed (mach 4.5) and range doubled. With double the range a Granit-M is a 1,000km range weapon, and of course the 650mm torpedo tubes can fire Kh-101s too, to 1,000km range high speed missiles with 750kg warheads for large radar sites or to engage airbases aprons at the time the Kh-101s are flying past after the real targets of the strike. For targets deep inland then you can just fire the Kh-101s.

Regarding your other posts there are plenty of stories of corruption in other armies, with equipment like TOW missile launchers and Stinger missiles going “missing” or being supposedly destroyed during exercises and then turning up at the quartermasters residence… doesn’t sell newspapers though.

I’m responding to Garry’s post, not to the Kh-101 idea. That’s why Oscar would have to come close, please read my ENTIRE post before commenting. I clearly mentioned those things there.

And, no they don’t specially fly over there as there are many better areas to live in Russia, but the people that are there do it (mostly service and ex-service people). They indeed get rather rapidly rich in this way. Although some of them don’t even understand the true value of these goods and only get a dime for something much more valuable.

Haha, you just can’t believe it can you? It’s a widespread thing, happening all the time. They guarded it, but the guards were the ones stealing afterwards… As mentioned in the report, maybe you should read it again.

I do believe you , so just booked a ticket to Moscow and from there to the Northern area , to scavange some Gold ,Silver and Palladium from Oscar and other subs , My Idea of Get Rich Quick 😀 Huh……..

Those NK subs are at best effective in shallow waters , why would the Oscar need to get that close to fire its goodies , for anti-ship they would fire the Granit or Klub and for Land Attack they would fire or atleast has the potential to launch the KH-101 ( 5000 Km) or KH-555 ( 3000 Km range ).

Oh in Litorral Waters any conventional subs , specially the midgets types are quite effective as compared to its Nuclear Brethern.

Haha, you just can’t believe it can you? It’s a widespread thing, happening all the time. They guarded it, but the guards were the ones stealing afterwards… As mentioned in the report, maybe you should read it again.

As for NK subs, don’t underestimate the power a very small conventional sub in shallow waters using the bottom contours to hide. And be sure, also NK has some good captains and crews. As for the Oscar, with Granit (and “supposing” you can change fuel, technology, warhead and seeker is out of the question, as you would then just basically make a new missile) it would have to get in the range of these NK subs. You never know when one gets lucky. Killing an Oscar would be quite a good propaganda issue. Nonetheless, NK isn’t the best of examples I admit, as the NK peninsula isn’t a good area for such a thing. But, using a 3000km cruise missile, the Oscar can stay well out of reach of these SSKs, not even taking the slightest risk.

The report if true , just speaks about theft purely for financial gain , No one is stealing those coz they dont have bread to eat , But its not something which cant be corrected ,They need to Gaurd those bases and probably even those de-commisioned subs to prevent such incident.

Broadly speak about those bases not being Gaurded properly but neverthless a serious issue , Thats a 2003 report and I am sure corrective steps would have been taken.

To tell you more or less about a similar Incident wich took place at the Mumbai Naval Docks , Tons of Metal Plates special prepared by DRDO for the Project-17 ships were stolen from the *High Security* Docks and sold to scrap dealers for fraction of the cost ( purely as metal scraps )( It could be an isolated incident ) , Those were special types of steel prepared first time in India by DRDO for the P-17 Project . Before this we used to import such steel to build warships from Russia.

After some time it was realised that the metal sheets were stolen and then traced to some scrap dealer , To the best of my knowledge the culprit who did this has not been caught. All vehicals comimg in and out are throughly checked to prevent such untoward incident or theft .

Such isolated incident keeps on happening every where purely because of the greed of some individual . and its not a systematic things which keeps on happening and when timely detected corrective steps are taken to prevent it.