http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/americas/article2729656.ece
Defence industry banks on wave of deals to lift trade
HMS Ocean arrives in Rio
Dom Phillips Rio de Janeiro
Last updated September 16 2010 11:41PM
Docked in Rio de Janeiro as part of a concerted push to sell British defence equipment, HMS Ocean looks an imposing show of military muscle.
A crowd on the flight deck watched as officers from the Brazilian military rode in armed speedboats and a Griffon hovercraft. On the ship’s hangar deck, bunting was draped behind two helicopters for a gala dinner, while a Royal Navy band practised.
“The whole visit will be conducted with the ceremony that Britain is famous for,” said Simon Carter, the logistics commander.
“This is UK plc,” said Gerald Howarth, the Minister for International Security Strategy, who was in Brazil to sign a defence co-operation agreement with the Government.
But can the British defence industry make up ground lost to the Italians and French? The French have already won lucrative deals for submarines and helicopters and are hoping to close a deal to sell 36 Rafale fighter planes.
“Britain is late,” said Felipe Salles, the editor of the Brazilian Base Military website. “The Italians and the French are ahead.”
Britain wants to be included in Brazil’s booming defence budget. The country is the biggest spender in Latin America, with a budget of $26.1 billion (£16.7 billion) last year, an increase of 38.7 per cent since 2000.
HMS Ocean is the Royal Navy’s biggest ship and can carry 18 helicopters and 500 Marines. The visit comes after two days of amphibious exercises between Royal and Brazilian Marines. “We took them over our entire assault procedure,” said Lieutenant-Colonel Neil Wraith, of the Marines.
Paul Edwards, of the Griffon hovercraft company, said that there was “considerable potential” in Brazil. Griffon is hoping to sell hovercraft to Brazilian police, air rescue and military. He said that the Royal Navy would help his case. “It is a clear demonstration of UK government support for our company,” he said.
Sym Taylor, of BAE Systems, is chasing a bigger prize: a Brazilian naval contract for five frigates, five offshore patrol vessels and a logistics ship. This is part of a 20-year plan to buy 30 new ships for the ageing Brazilian fleet.
“There is a recognition that Brazil is important,” Mr Taylor said. The key is technology transfer. Brazil wants the ships built in the country’s shipyards and Britain is prepared to help.
In a speech in July William Hague, the Foreign Secretary, made a call for stronger links with emerging economic powers such as India, China and Brazil. “In recent years Britain’s approach to building relationships with new and emerging powers has been ad hoc and patchy,” Mr Hague said.
The speech was well received. “It was very much noticed,” Alan Charlton, the British Ambassador to Brazil, said.
Some insiders at the British Embassy in Brazil want Princes William and Harry to visit to strengthen Britain’s case. High-profile tours by President Sarkozy of Franceand Silvio Berlusconi, the Italian Prime Minister, made headline news. In contrast, President Lula da Silva used Gordon Brown’s visit in March last year to blame “white, blue-eyed bankers” for the financial crash.
On board HMS Ocean, the defence accord was signed by Mr Howarth and Admiral Julio Neto, the Brazilian Navy Commander. But 35 countries already have similar agreements with Brazil.
In June, Admiral Neto indicated that Italy had won the first contract. However, elections for the presidency, Senate and Congress next month could change things. “Anything could happen,” Mr Salles said.
By: Hammer - 28th October 2010 at 04:12
The “air defense frigate” was basicly the original spec for the new 6000 ton frigates, this is, before the deal with the Italians was cut in the middle of theis year…
By: Arabella-Cox - 26th October 2010 at 02:36
does Brazil plan on buying an dedicated Air Defense Frigates?
By: orko_8 - 24th October 2010 at 17:43
T26 is being offered to Turkey for TF2000 program as a joint-development package, but due to extremely poor PR and marketing they don’t have a chance, I guess. If they use the same strategy and personnel in Brazil… well… not a slightest chance..
By: ppp - 22nd October 2010 at 10:20
The second pairs of Horizons were canned in favour of improving the AD capability of FREMM precisely because Horizon is much more expensive.
So . . .we should throw in for free the nearly new ship which we have several potential customers for, & which we should be able to sell for a good price, as a sweetener for a deal which isn’t going to happen, if at all, for a few years? Doesn’t sound like good business to me.
Indeed, there are many countries that would pay good money for one of those Bay LPD(A)s!
By: swerve - 22nd October 2010 at 10:00
The second pairs of Horizons were canned in favour of improving the AD capability of FREMM precisely because Horizon is much more expensive.
So . . .we should throw in for free the nearly new ship which we have several potential customers for, & which we should be able to sell for a good price, as a sweetener for a deal which isn’t going to happen, if at all, for a few years? Doesn’t sound like good business to me.
By: Arabella-Cox - 22nd October 2010 at 05:04
too sweeten the deal the UK could throw in the Bay class LSD(A) that is going to be deactivated.
Also why hasn’t Brazil pursued the Horizon class Frigate? every few months it seems like one of them is in Brazil for training or just showing off. They cant be that much more expensive then a FREMM.
By: Hammer - 22nd October 2010 at 04:27
Except that it is the 4 T22B3s that are to be decommissioned, with all the current RN T23s remaining until they are replaced by T26.
Oh! I had not seen that spelled out before…
Regards,
Hammer
By: Bager1968 - 21st October 2010 at 08:06
Except that it is the 4 T22B3s that are to be decommissioned, with all the current RN T23s remaining until they are replaced by T26.
By: Hammer - 20th October 2010 at 06:00
The Brazilian Navy today desires 18 new-build 8000 ton frigates as part of a total 30 new escort ship fleet. The problem of the T-26s here is that their program is just now begining and first deliveries are scheduled the earliest in 2020. This is way too late for replacing the current 4 Inhaúma corvettes, the six Niteroi class frigates and the three remaining T-22 Batch 1s… In this scenario if the four T.23s come at “a very atractive price” they might eventually (depending on who gets elected in Oct 31st) manage to entice the incoming new Government despite not being locally manufactured…
Regards,
Hammer
By: Arabella-Cox - 18th October 2010 at 23:22
That brings up a question. Is Italy going to get the naval version of Storm shadow?
Up to now, no. MMI is happy with the land attack capability of the Teseo (200km, with GPS). However the FREMM can be upgraded with 16 more A-70 VLS, by project there is the space.
Recall that also in Italy it’s time to defense cut but, luckly, all the main and more expensive ships were already built (CV Cavour and DDGs Doria).
That’s left the backbone of the fleet to be renewed, 12 frigates of Maestrale (8 hulls) and Soldati (4 hulls) class, plus the 4 Lupos decommissioned without any substitute: in 1996 MMI operated 16 frigates and 4 destroyers.
This is the situation.
– 6 FREMM already financed and sure, 3 in construction
– 4 FREMM approved by the parliament, but without funding them. However the option for them will expired in 2013 (4th couple) and 2014 (5th couple) and the construction should not start in any case before 3 years so the MoD simply postponed the decision.
IMHO we will build 8 FREMM; the two De La Penne Class Destroyers just finished a big MLU (new radars and other stuff) and can stay in service for other 10 – 15 years. In 2020 we can think at a new class of destroyers and MMI will mantain 12 major surface escorts (6.000+ tons) that are considered the minimum level.
Recall that it’s 50 years that Italy build destroyers with two ships for each class.:
– San Giorgio and San Marco in 1950 (ex light cruisers from WWII)
– Impetuoso and Indomito in 1952
– Impavido and Intrepido in 1962
– Ardito and Audace in 1972
– De la Penne and Mimbelli in 1992
– Doria and Duilio in 2008
By: verbatim - 18th October 2010 at 23:14
Marina Militare (Italian Navy) would like it very much, but it’s all about funds and politics, and IMHO there is no immedate need for Italy to purchase Scalp Naval missiles.
It would spark more and more rivlaries with Aeronautica Militare (Italian Air Force), having the latter 200 Storm Shadow on order and being obviously eager to be the main italia strike tool.
Anyway it does not intermingle with a prospective contract to provide FREMM frigates to foreigner customers, because all you need actually is the right type of Sylver VLS, and to add some consolle in the CIC and COC to perform mission planning for each missile with the related wiring.
By: Arabella-Cox - 18th October 2010 at 23:01
It would have to be a hell of a deal because with land attack capability FREMM is a more capable hull.
That brings up a question. Is Italy going to get the naval version of Storm shadow?
By: benroethig - 18th October 2010 at 22:51
It would have to be a hell of a deal because with land attack capability FREMM is a more capable hull.
By: Arabella-Cox - 18th October 2010 at 19:32
I said a week ago that the italian navy website is not so update.
Wrong. Here (a PDF) it appears, I think for the first time in an official document, that the italian FREMMs will be equipped with the Aster 30.
http://www.marina.difesa.it/editoria/notiziario/2010/09_settembre/documenti/15.pdf
(in italian, sorry)
By: nocutstoRAF - 17th October 2010 at 18:04
How would that save money? :confused: That is, after all, the entire point of the current review.
The way I see it (rightly or wrongly) we need some sort of reciprocal deal if we want Brazil to consider buying T26 from us, along with orders for OPV’s and supply ships, as T26 is very likely to be delayed for a considerable time. If we can agree a reciprocal deal, we spend £x million in Brazil if they spend £4x million in the UK (as an example) then we end up in the long run quids in. If we really want more defence exports (which is something we can all agree we want) then IMO we are going to have to make deals like this with Brazil and India as they have the purchasing power to walk away from anything less than a deal where we transfer tech and we invest in some shape or form in their countries.
.
By: swerve - 17th October 2010 at 17:37
I’m pretty sure the expensive bit of the Type 23s isn’t the propulsion, but rather the power plant which is a fuel hungry turbine designed for high speed. Cheap patrols require diesel engines. Removing the turbines is hardly a cheap or practical option.
Power plant = propulsion. And the Type 23 has four diesels for low-speed pootling around & electricity generation, as well as the two gas turbines.
By: swerve - 17th October 2010 at 17:30
On the issue of incentives for Brazil, personally the best way they could seal the deal with Brazil is not to give them four T23 but instead for the MoD to place an order with BAE for four 4,000 tonne frigates to replace the T22’s and have BAE build them in Brazilian ship yards.
How would that save money? :confused: That is, after all, the entire point of the current review.
By: ppp - 17th October 2010 at 17:29
I might be (almost certainly am) reading to much in it but I think it is an amazing coincidence that the week the SDSR is announced and it is almost certain that four more T23 will be paid off that the president of Chile is visiting. Not sure that Chile needs four more T23’s given that they announced plans to modernise their existing frigate fleet, but I cannot help wonder if the President is not over because the RN plans a fire sale.
On the issue of incentives for Brazil, personally the best way they could seal the deal with Brazil is not to give them four T23 but instead for the MoD to place an order with BAE for four 4,000 tonne frigates to replace the T22’s and have BAE build them in Brazilian ship yards.
It could be that Chile plan to buy 2 or so of them, that would be a much more financially sound option for the UK, and we’d still have the chance to sell them some Type 26 too.
I agree an order by the MoD would be the best way to boost its export chances. Giving them 4 free frigates would just have the effect of removing the urgency for them to place an order for replacements. Whilst we could have a contract with the Brazilians saying they must order 5 Type 26 if we give them the 4 free Type 23, they would likely delay the order until they end of the Type 23 service life, at which point, they could simply demand to renegotiate the contract or they will go with other bidders, but thanks for the free ships.
By: nocutstoRAF - 17th October 2010 at 17:00
… however they still have a value, and giving them away for free is a bad idea when they can instead be sold… The 4 frigates could be sold to any number of countries.
I might be (almost certainly am) reading to much in it but I think it is an amazing coincidence that the week the SDSR is announced and it is almost certain that four more T23 will be paid off that the president of Chile is visiting. Not sure that Chile needs four more T23’s given that they announced plans to modernise their existing frigate fleet, but I cannot help wonder if the President is not over because the RN plans a fire sale.
On the issue of incentives for Brazil, personally the best way they could seal the deal with Brazil is not to give them four T23 but instead for the MoD to place an order with BAE for four 4,000 tonne frigates to replace the T22’s and have BAE build them in Brazilian ship yards.
By: kev 99 - 17th October 2010 at 15:43
No I’ve taken it into account, however they still have a value, and giving them away for free is a bad idea when they can instead be sold. Giving 4 frigates away to get a contract for a small part of 5 is unlikely to yield a net profit. Remember, these ships are almost certain to be built in Brazil, and probably a lot of their systems too. The 4 frigates could be sold to any number of countries.
Wasn’t there a rumour of a possible sale of new build T23s to an African country earlier on this year? Morocco, Algeria?
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September 17, 2010 at 3:49 am