Canadian Fighter Replacement

Wouldn’t the F/A-18 save some money somewhere given its commonality (spares, training, tires, …something) to the existing Hornets? 

Or does “a million hete, a million there”, not mean anything in a buy this large? 

Also, when the Canadians bought their last fighters, (when I was a kid) I recall someone answering the question of if they were going to buy any attrition replacements, by saying  ” No, if we need more we’ll get free used ones from the Americans”.

If that is still an official stance, wouldn’t they want the Super Hornet?

Boeing is out of the competition, leaving only SAAB and Lockheed Martin.

https://thehill.com/policy/international/583923-boeing-out-of-the-runni…

Looks good on our Prime Minister.
Eventually he’ll have a choice between the jet offered by the company that screwed over our aerospace industry, or the jet that he railed against 4 yrs ago, during his election campaign, and which a previous Liberal government made us members of the program.
Meanwhile, at least a decade has been wasted.

Boeing should offer the CF-15CA.
What was the best choice in 1980 can’t be wrong today. Back to the Future!

Airbus, Boeing indicate they may pull out of Canada fighter jet race – sources

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-c…-idUSKCN1U32EX

Airbus has now formally withdrawn from the competition citing NORAD requirements as well as a relaxation of the industrial portion of the contract as the main reasons.

[INDENT]
One of the companies in the race to replace Canada’s aging fleet of CF-18 jet fighters has dropped out of the competition.

Airbus Defence and Space, which was pitching the Eurofighter Typhoon, notified the Liberal government Friday that it was not going to bid.

The decision was made after a detailed review of the tender issued by the federal government in mid-July.

The move leaves only three companies in the contest: Lockheed Martin Canada with its F-35; Boeing with the Super Hornet; and Saab, which is offering an updated version of its Gripen fighter.

Simon Jacques, president of Airbus Defence and Space Canada, made a point of saying the company appreciated the professional dealings it had with defence and procurement officials.

“Airbus Defence and Space is proud of our longstanding partnership with the Government of Canada, and of serving our fifth home country’s aerospace priorities for over three decades,” Jacques said in a statement. “Together we continue in our focus of supporting the men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces, growing skilled aerospace jobs across the country and spurring innovation in the Canadian aerospace sector.”

Airbus decided to withdraw after looking at the NORAD security requirements and the cost it imposes on companies outside of North America.

It also said it was convinced that the industrial benefits regime, as written in the tender, “does not sufficiently value the binding commitments the Typhoon Canada package was willing to make.”

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/airbus-canada-fighters-1.5265665

[/INDENT] This shouldn’t be a great surprise to anyone, especially as Dassault withdrew for the same NORAD security issues. Meeting NORAD requirements was always going to favour the US jets. I expect that Saab will eventually withdraw as well and it will remain a Boeing Versus LM contest.

Airbus, Boeing indicate they may pull out of Canada fighter jet race – sources

Boeing and Airbus have now formally written to Ottawa expressing concerns about the current requirements, said two sources familiar with the matter who declined to be identified given the sensitivity of the situation.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-c…-idUSKCN1U32EX

Canada will get the F-35 in the end. Then we will all think back and wonder why we wasted so much time on something that was inevitable…..:stupid:

Each FMS deal is relatively unique and unless it’s broken down, you will not get a true picture of the costs. In the above example it is obvious that it includes a lot more than the Super Hornet itself. Some FMS deals include these costs up front and others include them in followup weapons, parts, and support deals.

Hefty price for the Super Hornet…290,5 mio USD a piece; https://nationalpost.com/news/canada…nment-confirms

I was under the impression those RAAF F/A-18’s were flogged. I remember reading a RAAF doc mentioning airframe life was expiring on majority of the fleet and it was considered uneconomical to extend.

You are probably referring to the ANAO report from 2012 which said the following,

In recent years, Tactical Fighter SPO and the ACG have implemented a range of initiatives designed to ensure that the Hornet fleet can meet its operational requirements out to its Planned Withdrawal Date, which at the time of the audit was 2020.7 Defence records indicate that, while F/A-18A/B operational availability and logistics support satisfy DMO’s agreement with the RAAF, this is becoming increasingly difficult to achieve, because significant aged-aircraft issues are resulting in maintenance durations and costs becoming less predictable. Annual spending to sustain the Hornet fleet has averaged $118 million since 2000–01, but is trending towards $170 million per annum over the next several years. The cost of airframe corrosion-related repairs has also increased significantly, from $721 000 in 2007 to $1.367 million as estimated in 2011.

17. The F/A-18A/B Hornet was designed for a safe life of 6000 airframe hours under specified flight profiles. Defence data indicates that, at the current rate of effort of 13 000 airframe hours per year for the fleet (reducing to 12 000 hours from 2013–14), the Hornet fleet as a whole will not exceed 6000 flying hours for each aircraft until after the current Planned Withdrawal Date of 2020. That said, all but nine aircraft have experienced structural fatigue above that expected for the airframe hours flown, leading the ACG to take steps to conserve the remaining fatigue life of its F/A-18A/Bs to ensure they remain operable up to the safe life of 6000 airframe hours.

https://www.anao.gov.au/work/performance-audit/management-australias-air-combat-capability-%E2%80%94-fa-18-hornet-and-super-hornet

Since that report the RAAF has undertaken further analysis and have determined the corrosion is not as bad as first thought and can be managed to maintain the required capability. The good news is L-3 in Canada are the recognised experts for classic Hornet sustainment including being the primary location for all Centre Barrel replacements, so if anyone can get more time out of the RAAF Hornets they will.

I was under the impression those RAAF F/A-18’s were flogged. I remember reading a RAAF doc mentioning airframe life was expiring on majority of the fleet and it was considered uneconomical to extend.

Exactly what Canada is buying for a half billion will be interesting to see. Upholder Class hindsight seems to be a distant memory.

An article in French is available with commentary by the former Chief of the RCAF (who retired in 2015 from the position) on the current Canadian Fighter replacement program.

Using Google translate.

Retired General Yvan Blondin, former Commander of the Bagotville Base and now Defense Systems Consultant, was in the front row when Canada conducted studies to determine the best fighter aircraft to replace the aging CF fleet. -18.

“To avoid the bias of the military, the work was done by Public Works Canada and the three studies were clear: the F-35, if it fulfilled its promise of performance and cost, was the best camera and the best value for money. -price “, explains the retired general.

“Of course, the plane was still developing; problems occurred and the price was high. It was perfectly normal. But since then, the hunter has proven that he is able to fulfill his promises and the costs have gone from $ 120 million to $ 90 million each (estimated delivery price starting in 2022). “

That said, Yvan Blondin is convinced that the F-35 will still be in the lead if we redo the studies and that it will win the tenders that will be launched by the government by 2019.

https://www.lequotidien.com/actualites/le-f-35-pour-remplacer-les-cf-18-db74841382806e929c743bfe541e50f2

That sounds like a good deal to me.

Will be interesting to see if any ex-RAAF Hornets actually fly with the RCAF. The RAAF jets apparently have more corrosion but fewer hours so the thought is L-3 will frankenise a few RCAF Hornets with RAAF parts. I also doubt some of the specific Australian modifications will make it to the RCAF, such as the BOL countermeasures and integration of the EL-8222. Both would be very handy for the RCAF and probably wouldn’t cost too much to acquire from the RAAF, who can’t use them on the SH and F-35.

#Ozair

Thanks. That sounds like a good deal to me.

Any news on the projected cost of the ex-RAAF aircraft? This deal could be good for both customer and supplier at quite a low cost. I guess Australia would scrap them if Canada did not buy them so no pressure to get a high price. Any money received would be an unexpected financial boost to Australia’s MOD.

The Canadian Government has apparently set aside $500 million for the purchase and I have seen an acquisition price of approximately $350 million for the 18 aircraft. The first two aircraft arrive in 2019 with the last delivered in 2022.

MAybe the truth is ALSO the former gov. lied to canadian people about F-35 lifecycle costs (see KPMG…)

And if you actually read the KPMG report you realise the previous Canadian Government didn’t lie, they just didn’t forecast as far forward as the KPMG report. The Canadian Government forecast was initially to 20 years, then to 30 years while the KPMG report forecast 42 years. How many assumptions does the Government, and KPMG, have to make in deciding the cost of labour, fuel, spares and inflation across a 30 or 42 year timeframe? It makes these long term forecasts mostly meaningless.

What we do know is that of the options available to Canada the F-35 will be the one that is most likely to remain in production the longest, is the most likely to be in service with its primary operator the longest and is most likely to see the most manufactured. That all points to in service costs being cheaper than alternatives.

Buying ex-Australian F-18s as a stopgap reminds me of Canada getting a batch of refurbished ex-USAF F-101s when their first batch of VooDoos was retired.
I believe the USAF refurbished some those….

Any news on the projected cost of the ex-RAAF aircraft? This deal could be good for both customer and supplier at quite a low cost. I guess Australia would scrap them if Canada did not buy them so no pressure to get a high price. Any money received would be an unexpected financial boost to Australia’s MOD.

The truth is that comrade Justin would prefer to ignore fast jets and use defense monies to buy more votes from those on the dole.

MAybe the truth is ALSO the former gov. lied to canadian people about F-35 lifecycle costs (see KPMG…)

The truth is that comrade Justin would prefer to ignore fast jets and use defense monies to buy more votes from those on the dole.