Capital punishment, or cruelty?????

Pub food is usually quite good, and pretty affordable. If the regular food (which seems to be either some sort of stew or Indian) doesn’t suit you, you can always have breakfasts 24/7, or stuff yourself on the plethora of desserts 🙂

Originally posted by Flood

Some of us are silly too…;)

Flood.

Really ? 😀

In fact, it is a very nice country you have there, ans most people are usually very friendly. And always glad to help.

If only it was possible to eat decently… And for a reasonnable price :p

Originally posted by Comet
While on the subject that I know little of what goes on in Belgium, let me tell you Belgians/Dutch/French and any other foreigner that you know nothing of what goes on in Britain, and the concerns of the British.

Is it just me or does anyone else find this intensly crass? While I cannot claim to know any country very well at all – other than my own – I have always been quite shocked at how much other nationals know of Britain, and the fact that despite this knowledge they still want to know us better!
I have put this down to the exportation of our TV progs – so I had better warn everybody that not all of us act in the thick-headed, bigoted, intolerant, irrational, and narrow-minded fashion seen so often on Eastenders, the spectator stands at football matches (especially in the 70s and 80s), and by some here who should remain nameless (and quiet – since by forcing their rabid views down peoples throats only goes to show their true colours…).

Some of us are silly too…;)

Flood.

Originally posted by Comet
While on the subject that I know little of what goes on in Belgium, let me tell you Belgians/Dutch/French and any other foreigner that you know nothing of what goes on in Britain, and the concerns of the British.

Might be true, but the point rather was a reaction of horror about such ways of thinking, which are rather similar to fascism.

For you to say that I do not think like a real Belgian, are you saying that Belgians are automatons who all think exactly the same way, have exactly the same views? Are you told by your government what you must think? (I know that is what the EU wants, that people are told what they can and cannot think, but I don’t give a sh*t).

No, we don’t have all the same view, and the fact that you could even come to such thoughts shows that you don’t know this country. A country with 3 different languages, and many more ways of thinking. As for your little anti-europe ranting, I’d advise you to check your facts *before* spitting out such comments.

And as for my Belgian “internet friends”, for your information I have met them. Yes, I encountered them first in a discussion forum, but I met them when I went to Belgium last year, so Geforce, do not make such sweeping statements about me which you do not know to be correct. (And also for your information, some of them agree with my views!)

Would there be a possibility that some of those friends were in Nieuwpoort or Ieper from 20th till 23rd of August 2003? Just a guess, deduced from the fact they share your views…

And as for your rantings about the British killings, have you forgotten how many British people were buried in the cemetries around Ieper, who died defending your Belgium?

Yes it is “our” Belgium, as it is stated on our ID cards.
And yes, many British died, as did many Americans, French, Belgians, and many more countries. I guess even from all countries on this planet. And it was not to defend this country, it was to defend theirs, and also to defend ideas. Ideas about freedom and free speech, ideas that all people are equal in rights, under others… Isn’t that a *bit* controversial with your views? But again, that is democracy…

How many British died to prevent the Nazis taking over Europe?
How many Kurds were slaughtered by Saddam Hussein before the British and Americans and their allies removed him from power? All the Iraqis who “disappeared” at thge hands of the Saddam regime? What about all the killings in Zimbabwe, that is not being done by the British, but I don’t see anyone on here condemning the Mugabe regime.

And how would those soldiers feel today, if they knew their grandchildren, who they fought for, are avout to vote for a party supporting ideas of that kind? You should ask a veteran… I bet he wouldn’t agree with you either…

With all regards you deserve,
Frank

Originally posted by Comet
And as for your rantings about the British killings, have you forgotten how many British people were buried in the cemetries around Ieper, who died defending your Belgium?

Very tasteless of you to use this argument, because
1. We are very thankfull. In fact, I go each year to visit the cemetries, it’s a school trip.
2. They did not defend MY Belgium, they helped (twice) defending the world against an awfull regime.
3. As much as we respect the people who died here, it’s not up to you to make me feel guilty about that. These soldiers died as much for you as for me.

Good grief. You can almost hear her humming ‘Land of Hope and Glory’ as she hammered it out!:rolleyes:
What is this – more of our troops are buried in your cemetaries than your, na na na-na-na? – Nermal

While on the subject that I know little of what goes on in Belgium, let me tell you Belgians/Dutch/French and any other foreigner that you know nothing of what goes on in Britain, and the concerns of the British.

For you to say that I do not think like a real Belgian, are you saying that Belgians are automatons who all think exactly the same way, have exactly the same views? Are you told by your government what you must think? (I know that is what the EU wants, that people are told what they can and cannot think, but I don’t give a sh*t).

And as for my Belgian “internet friends”, for your information I have met them. Yes, I encountered them first in a discussion forum, but I met them when I went to Belgium last year, so Geforce, do not make such sweeping statements about me which you do not know to be correct. (And also for your information, some of them agree with my views!)

And as for your rantings about the British killings, have you forgotten how many British people were buried in the cemetries around Ieper, who died defending your Belgium? How many British died to prevent the Nazis taking over Europe? How many Kurds were slaughtered by Saddam Hussein before the British and Americans and their allies removed him from power? All the Iraqis who “disappeared” at thge hands of the Saddam regime? What about all the killings in Zimbabwe, that is not being done by the British, but I don’t see anyone on here condemning the Mugabe regime.

Hey, I will be in my cold cold grave before I recognise Holland as an independent state (Grandpa Simpson, but change Holland with Missouri) :). Eupen is great, unfortunatelly German speaking Belgium is often forgotten, if it wasn’t of Frank :p

Hey, i spent yesterday afternoon having a great time (and drinking lovely Belgian Rheinheitsgebot-beer) in Eupen. Although i guess that the mere thought of a German-language town in the idolated country of Belgium would be heartbreaking 😀

Originally posted by Comet

And Frank – I really don’t care what you think of my signature – I have many Belgian “internet friends” from another forum I go on, and they love my signature.

Cool, internet friends. has it come to your mind that REAL Belgians (flesh and blood) can be different. Belgium is not a realtime computergame, Comet. Your passion towards Belgium is of a such an extent (frightening) that I bet you would rather see the people living here being exported to Siberia. Normally I would encourage people to visit our country, but I won’t anymore. So don’t act like you know the people, you might know some beers, but hell, you understand very little of the real life going on here.

Why does Singapore has such a lowe crime rate. A little bit of basic sociology. Because the people are disciplined, not because of the DP. If you put a moratorium on the DP in Singapore, crime will not increase, in fact, it may even lower. How can you manage the people to be more disciplined. Yes, not only “soft” measures, but you can also be severe without torture. In non-virtual Belgium for example drunken driving from now on will you cost about 1600 Euro’s! You’ll only do that once, I can guarantee you. After a while people won’t think about the consequences anymore, they’ll just consider it to be “not done”.

“(what about all the innocent people, including young children, who have been murdered by the poor, badly done to IRA?)”

What about all the innocent people, including young childeren who have been executed, murdered and slaughtered a couple of centuries on by the British ?????!!!!!!!! I’m not making a point here, and I’m not anti-British at all, I’m just saying what’s crossing my mind.

Originally posted by Comet
Nermal – first of all I am not a “he”. Secondly, I have visited Amnesty bloody International’s website often enough to know that they campaign for the rights of al-Qaeda (who did more moaning about the scum at Guantanamo Bay than AI?) I know that they say the British have been too brutal towards the IRA (what about all the innocent people, including young children, who have been murdered by the poor, badly done to IRA?) What I do know is that they show little, if any concern (except maybe lip service) to the suffering their beloved criminals inflict on their victims.

Amnesty International = Bin Laden Fan Club
Amnesty International = IRA Sympathisers

Also, on the subject of the death penalty, why does Singapore have such a low crime rate?

I must say that I did not know you were a female. Not that it will make any difference to me – I would ask the question ‘do you have to stop every so often to wipe the foaming spit from your monitor’ whether you were male or female.

But let’s look at your ‘hated’ Amnesty websites front page.
Haiti: Convicted human rights violators must not be allowed power
Rebel troops are being led by former secret police officers and torturers.
Thailand’s anti-drug policy should not be killing people
Thousands of people are being killed in Thailand’s anti-drug campaign with no investigation into whether or not they actually were involved in the drug trade.
Stop child executions!
Under international law it is expressly forbidden to execute child offenders – but it is still happening.
Burundi: Women under attack
Rape as a strategic weapon of war is used by both government and opposition forces in Burundi’s civil war.
USA: “Double jeopardy” for some Guantánamo detainees
Prisoners deemed not worth bothering about by the Americans face being returned to their home countries to face torture and kangaroo courts. Some of these countries will be doing this in order to prove to the Americans that they can be trusted allies – despite the fact that these former detainees will have been held as “hard core, well-trained terrorists” and “devoted to killing millions of Americans” then released without charge.
But of course – to you – all these people are scum. You probably cheer when faced with the chance that the next rulers in Haiti might be quite happy to torture people just to learn obscure detail about their neighbour, or beat them because they did not vote for the right party. It makes you happy that the Thai military thinks it is acceptable to spray bullets around indiscriminately when apparently going after drug barons and kill anyone in the area – much like a drive-by here or in America except that it is carried out by the authorities (so that’s all right – and when relatives prove that one of the deceased was a businessman who was in dispute with a local police chief then that’s all right too). Obviously children are as guilty as adults too – as long as they are from the lower social classes, and I am sure you wholly approve of women being raped as part of the political process. They are all, of course, just scum, an underclass only fit to be wiped out I suppose.
Are you, or have you, ever been a member of a quasi-military group – like the Brownies or the Girl Guides? Did you dance around the toadstool and swear to uphold the Brownie/Guide code? But imagine that the hierarchy of the Guides actually planned to fly an airliner into a tower block to draw attention to a grievance with uniforms or something; just because the top dog plans to do that does mean that every Brownie or Guide is as guilty? What is happening in Guantánamo is that all are terrorists, even the taxi drivers, the shop keepers, the cleaners. Imagine that the authorities came for your Guides group leader and also detained the little old lady from the corner shop because the ‘guilty’ woman bought a packet of wine gums on the way to that evenings meeting, or that as she is being lead away one of the boys playing football in the street stops to ask what is happening and is also thrown in the van. Still, they are just scum, and if they are lucky they might get released after a couple of years…
Does that scare you? I expect not – but this is not a million miles away from what happened in Afghanistan, or probably Iraq. But since they are all scum anyway it is perfectly fine, who gives a damn.

Is this the kind of penal system you want in Britain?

And I’d suspect that Singapore – not having a huge population – would have a lower crime rate than elsewhere, but then their schools have been educating the children respect all the way through the system, parents and elders would be honoured in that Far Eastern way, TV and the media are controlled (I think) so that little which would upset the status quo is shown, and the police have the power and the cell space to detain people for throwing chewing gum on to the pavement. But why is the apparently idyllic kingdom of Saudi Arabia in such turmoil when they have such a similar system of order over their population? And with the opportunity to utilise the death penalty too!

Spit – grow up.

Flood.

I’m all for Capital punishment for serious crimes (quid pro Quo )
But at the same time it should be administered in a humane fashion

They should hang murderers and child offenders once convicted on an ELASTIC type rope so that they bounce around a bit, it gives them time to think when death will come and time for Anmesty Int to complainabout their cruel death without thinking of the poor relatives of the person offended (killed or raped).:mad: 😡

Nermal – first of all I am not a “he”. Secondly, I have visited Amnesty bloody International’s website often enough to know that they campaign for the rights of al-Qaeda (who did more moaning about the scum at Guantanamo Bay than AI?) I know that they say the British have been too brutal towards the IRA (what about all the innocent people, including young children, who have been murdered by the poor, badly done to IRA?) What I do know is that they show little, if any concern (except maybe lip service) to the suffering their beloved criminals inflict on their victims.

Amnesty International = Bin Laden Fan Club
Amnesty International = IRA Sympathisers

Also, on the subject of the death penalty, why does Singapore have such a low crime rate?

If you are brave enough to be so forthright you have to be brave enough to handle the replies as well. Way of the world.
In the meantime nothing will change. Bring in a death penalty and more crimes will be committed with dead witnesses because the crims don’t want to leave anybody around who could identify them. Crime increase probably has more to do with todays ‘want it all NOW’ society – when you see people driving around in flashy cars and living in big spacious houses while you are making do with a 15 year old Ford Escort and living on a run down estate you might ask what have you got to lose.
Has capital crime gone down in America since the re-introduction of the death penalty? No. Not at all.
As for Comets attack on Amnesty maybe he should investigate what they really do and not blame them for doing the kind of job that world governments should be doing. – Nermal

Guys – here are some FACTS for you all. Since the abolition of capital punishment in the UK, the crime rate has increased annually. Since the abolition of corporal punishment in schools, juvenile crime has increased and now more children than ever before are being hauled before the courts charged with intimidation in gangs, assault etc (and who is more vocal than anyone else in saying that capital and corporal punishment should be abolished? yes, it’s Amnesty bloody International and Liberty). Do you really think that smackheads who attack old folk for their pensions should be free to roam the streets just so their “human” rights are left intact? What about the rights of pensioners to go out without fear of being mugged? Oh, I’m sorry, I forgot that it doesn’t matter about their rights, as long as the criminals are free to go about their vile business. And as for the capital punishment debate, I fully agree that it should only be carried out when there is 110% certainty of guilt, but with DNA fingerprinting it is now less likely that mistakes will be made.

And Frank – I really don’t care what you think of my signature – I have many Belgian “internet friends” from another forum I go on, and they love my signature.

I think the insulting nature of some of the comments directed at Comet are way out of line here. Agree or disagree, fair enough, but that sort of slagging is way over the top.

I personally back the death penalty for certain crimes, but as Flood points out, 100% proof is the minimum required for me. I think it should be a mandatory sentence in the cases it is a penalty for too – not dependant on the skill of your lawyer. But hey, thats just an opinion, to which I am entitled to hold.

Originally posted by Geforce
Flood, as far as I’m concerned, the debate on pro/contra capital punishment is still open. I can understand 100% why victims would like their murderer/raper being hanged, but there’s on thing you forget here. Justice is not out to satisfy the needs of one person (the victim is selfish, how weird this may sound) but society as a whole. Capital punishment will not make your country a safer place. Countries who respect human rights for instance have a healthy economy, and this is no coincidence (Adam Smith). So you don’t have to be a tree hugger to support (basic) human rights, only some rational thinking. And this discussion is not even about death penalty. As much as I oppose it, human rights and death penalty are still different issues. The problem here is not the women being executed, but the way it was done is just munstruous.

Ben

This discussion might not be about the death penalty but that is part of it – the Jordanian woman was being hung. Yes, what happened to her was horrific – might that be counted as torture? Obviously the authorities have not bothered to go through the calculations worked out in the past about drop-distance to body weight (not in her case nor the one where the prisoners head was separated from her body). But for a discussion specifically on whether her crime was worthy of such a sentence we’d need more information; to me (without that necessary further detail) I would be worried that since children will happily play in water and around canals was there a chance that there was a mix up? Or was the children’s family very influential? Their son had obviously been playing around with her but they didn’t want a marriage; was a tragedy conveniently used to rid them of her? Stranger things have happened – but usually only on television.
Either way my post was to counter the flow of clapping and cheering about a country brave enough to use the death penalty. My sympathies go to the victim – every time.
What I do worry about is that too many people want the return of the death penalty without caring that the charge might not be correctly investigated. They decide that they will never be the one on the receiving end of the rope/gas pellet/lethal injection – because they are obviously a good person – and so can foam at the mouth for return of such punishment. How would they feel if they were picked up for a murder, for example, of which they were totally innocent but found out that there was nothing they could do to dissuade the prosecution and jury that they had nothing to do with the crime?
Apparently the solved crime rates for murders in apartheid-era South Africa would have been the envy of the rest of the world – were it not for the fact that even high officials knew that young black men were regularly dragged off the street, given the most rudimentary of trials and then (if they were lucky) rapidly hung, a common practise for nearly all serious crime unless it involved a white. And what about that woman in Nigeria who was convicted of adultery and sentenced to death under religious law? The man involved was not even harshly regarded by the church – but she was to be stoned to death (I think. I believe international interest eventually got the sentence overturned anyway).

How many people have been released in Britain because evidence has been tampered with, because witnesses have been proven to have lied, or because a copper with a hunch but little evidence decided that some poor sod was guilty and just let the case run on regardless? Still don’t believe it? Imagine a storyline from a soap opera where one of the characters has been sent to prison despite being innocent – and remember that most stories in soaps are based on a vestige of reality. It can happen, and it would happen.

Flood.

There is a problem with Comet’s logic:

The sentence ” The police are not brutal enough, if they literally kicked the sh*t out of scum like……….. ” for example:

If you see it that way, and that the cops hit people for such reason, that makes them, by the law, criminals, and to their turn, they should get the same treatment… Which means that someone has to apply it, and that at the end, everyone kicks everybody.

Same with death penalty, the person who kills the convict, by whatever method, and also the judge + jury who sentenced him become murderers too, and so, should also be killed…

A reaaaal good idea. It will solve the over-population problem.

And if you say laws should be changed, i think we saw what happened, for example, in Germany in the 1930’s… Do i need to say more?

Oh, and Comet, as I’m at it, regarding the signature:

“When going to Belgium – eat with the Belgians, drink with the Belgians, but most of all, be flown by the Belgians!!”… I’m sorry, but when reading this, i feel like being an animal in a zoo…

Originally posted by Comet
That’s what I call justice. At least you have to agree, it is the only proven method of preventing re-offending! That thing will not kill any more children will it?

I think you’re hopelessly soft on criminals. Babies should all be drowned at birth, in order to prevent them from becoming criminals. If every kid who ever stole an apple was drowned (or hung, or smashed against a wall, or impaled) at birth, the world would be a better place indeed!

:rolleyes: