Captured Fokker D.VII – where is it?

…..but I am happy go back at a later date if you want so photos to show the “ridge” I mean.

Yes please, if it won’t inconvenience you.

In fact, having re-checked the photo, there appears to be two “ridgelines” behind the tailfin, the lower looks to be a “cut” into soil with trees on the ridgeline above and the more distant “horizon” may be the main downs themselves as they run north-west towards Denton.

This might well tie in with the landscape I have mentioned in my post above – the Bishopstone ridge ends in a sheer “edge” at the A259 almost as if the road was “cut” into the foot of the ridge.

Paul

According to Pete on the Kent & Sussex History Boards (see http://sussexhistoryforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=1839.0), the post-war land sale particulars indicate that the parade/landing ground of RNAS Newhaven was the field marked ‘A’ on the attached map/aerial photograph.

Hi Avion,

The land immediately east-northeast (i.e. within 100 feet) of the A259 is distinctly higher (20 – 30 feet) than that of the flood plain immediately to the southwest of the A259 (where the landing ground “A” appears to have been). The A259 skirts the very north eastern edge of the Ouse flood plain at that point, with a distinct difference in ground level to either side of the current carriageway.

So, if the photo was taken looking towards the east north east, and assuming the aircraft was parked fairly close to the north/northeastern road-ward edge of the field “A”, then the ridge visible in the photo may not be the larger “main” South downs themselves, but the far smaller Bishopstone “ridge” upon which the housing development shown on the modern street map were later built.

I have a number of photos of the area taken during numerous visits/walks, as we regularly walk there in the summer, but probably no photos taken in quite the right direction or from the right place to show what I mean.

As Andy S suggests, a 360 “spin” on google street view from a point on the A259 somewhere adjacent to the farm track (former RNAS service road?) towards the old Tidemills village site (which is very close to the former RNAS base) will show the sudden change in elevation that occurs in the landscape.

One other thought, given the aircraft seems to have crashed at Shoreham, could the photo be taken soemwhere there, either witht he SOuthdowns in the (distant) background or maybe with the riverside embankment in the (closer) background?

Unfortunately I cannot get back to Tidemills this weekend as we are away from home …but I am happy go back at a later date if you want so photos to show the “ridge” I mean.

Paul F

Interesting, I’d seen a poorer version of that pic before, but wondered if it was a French example. Unfortunately, the Fokkers the RAF obtained post-war do not seem to be well documented.

Quick Google reveals it was French, but passed to the British!

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/aircraft/44760-fokker-d-vii-no-2009-presumably-tested-allies.html

Thank you for that erudite input – which, although helpful, leaves me no closer to identifying the Fokker D.VII in which Maj. Carter met his end!

*****

Whilst I can’t say that 2009/18 wasn’t at Upper Heyford, the Fokker D.VII that is more prominently reported as being there is 8482/18 – which is illustrated below with Maj. Carter up. I had once thought that this was the aeroplane in which he met his end until I found the following post on theaerodromeforum:

“According to the RAF report on this captured machine (G/5Bde/20), it had Mercedes Nr. 34358 and machine guns nos. 6121 and 4952. It had a Heine prop, Nr. 29907. The report described the nose and tail as white,with printed camouflage (lozenge) fabric on the airframe. It had a “wide white line with blue edging on fuselage behind pilot”. It was flown by Fritz Blumenthal of Jasta 53.

You can find 2 photos of this aircraft and others of Jasta 53 in the latest ‘Over the Front” Volume 19 No. 4, in a fine article by Rick Duiven. I’ve been reliably informed by Alex Imrie that when it was captured it certainly had the black cross on the white fin and rudder (unlike what appears in the famous photo). The fabric in this area was apparently souvenired after capture, then re-covered by the British. A later photo shows the rudder painted with British tricolor stripes, and the rear fuselage over-painted and a roundel added. Alex told me that when he looked at a first generation glass neg print of the familar photo with the ‘all white’ rudder, he could see ‘pinked’ edges on the fabric tapes. Since these were used only by the British and not the Germans, it seems the rudder had been re-covered.Photos of other Jasta 53 D.VIIs all show the tails painted in individual colors, but with the cross intact, so this would fit in with standard unit practice.

By the way, there is a bit of motion picture footage of this a/c, as a wingless fuselage sitting in front of a hangar.”

Maj. Carter’s aeroplane having dived in from 7,000 feet, I doubt that there would be even a wingless fuselage left to sit in front of a hangar!

Mmmm..

Generally, the land to the north of there and on the horizon of your photo would be rising (and falling) in opposite directions to which we see in the photograph. From memory, I kinda think there is a possibility it might be taken looking eastwards towards Seaford, but it cannot be taken looking towards Newhaven as that is all flat and southwards would be flat towards the sea. Might be worth doing a Google street view along the A259 to see what the horizon is like?

I’d like it to be Newhaven though!

Wasn’t the Fokker in question also based at Upper Heyford? Could it be there?

According to Pete on the Kent & Sussex History Boards (see http://sussexhistoryforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=1839.0), the post-war land sale particulars indicate that the parade/landing ground of RNAS Newhaven was the field marked ‘A’ on the attached map/aerial photograph.

Andy, in answer to your three questions:

– no
– I don’t know but I’ll try to find out
– possibly, but see above

Are you certain that your image cannot be at Newhaven?

Where in relation to the town/port was the landing field? Was it not at Denton??

……for reasons that I’ll explain later.

The reason is that I’m trying to identify the captured Fokker D.VII which crashed at Shoreham on 22 May 1919. It was being flown by Maj. A.D.Carter RCAF, when the upper wing folded at 7000 feet, causing the aircraft to dive into the ground at high speed. The fact that the photo posted above is displayed on a website concerning RNAS Newhaven led me to wonder if…..?

I’m afraid that I have no knowledge of the topography of Martlesham Heath but others, to whom I’ve shown this image, have suggested that the buildings which appear above the fin and above and forward of the propellor are not indicative of Martlesham Heath. Can anyone with knowledge of the topography of that aerodrome help?

It’s the location at which the Fokker D.VII was photographed that’s important to me – for reasons that I’ll explain later.

*****