Catalina Mk1-of 333Sq info needed

I’ve been an aviation enthusiast for many years, building Mustangs, Spits, Flying Fortresses and Junkers kits many years ago. We are getting ready for a vacation in Norway so I’ve started some reading and web surfing.

Saw the FW 190 come out of a fjord a month ago and had to do an illustration, in doing research on that, came across the 333 Norsk squadron and ended up doing that as well. Thinking about the Brave little Gladiators that gave the Luftwaffe a bloody nose at Oslo when they thought they could stroll in…I haven’t decided to do that yet after the trouble finding info on the last project.

The more obscure, the more time it takes. Then again, everybody does Spits and Mustangs! Now if I could just figure out how to make it at least pay for the web site!!!

Anyone have any good obscure aircraft/events that deserve illustration? I’ve finally got the web site showing my illustrations at a decent size and without PROOF across the middle of everything!!! Think I have both the FW190 and the PBY working now. Click on the link and let me know how it looks!

Splendid 🙂
Nice to see that some of our wartime history captures interests abroad

Keep up good work

Well, Whichever U-Boat it was they got their bell rung! Here is my “Stalking Cats of the 333”, hopefully for final. Got some pics from a couple history types in Norway and updated the markings, the radar and the guns.

I’m putting this saga to bed, whichever U-boat it ended up being, it WAS the last flight of the FP121 C/333, “Jossing” and her Starboard Gunner, Pty/O O. Kyrre-Berg Danielsen, who was killed in the action. One of the many Norwegians who fought and died under the RAF colors. Image to be posted to my web site.

Yep. Sounds like a whole series of sharp little encounters that day.

Remind me never to go to sea …

Hi mhuxt, Have checked with ‘Coastal , Support and Special Squadrons of the RAF’ by John D R Rawlings and can confirm that you are right about the Sunderlands in 330 Squadron. In ‘Flying Cats’ they only mention the Catalinas in use by 330 Squadron. The Rawlings book does mention an attack by Sunderland mark 3 piloted by Lt. Johnsen of 330 Squadron on a surfaced U-boat! The front gunner was killed, the U-boat damaged and the Sunderland returned on 2 engines.

Hi mhuxt, there is no mention of Sunderlands in 330 Squadron, have you made a mistake? U-668 was sighted after midnight by the 333 Squadron CATALINA and attacked.
U-423 was attacked and sunk by FP183 of 333 Squadron on the 17/6/44 with the use of a 6 depthcharge attack. Maybe this is a better subject for Chris?
Ray.

Hiya Super Sioux:

Confusion definitely, no mistake though I think. The 330 Squadron ORB and the 333 Squadron ORB are both available here:

http://presentations.uib.no/pls/portal/NAFA.DYN_OPERASJONSDAGBOK.show

The 330 Squadron ORB seems pretty clear about Sunderlands – on page 76 (Adobe page number) of the pdf file, it says:

“330(N) Squadron, Sullom Voe
16 May 1944
Sunderland III JM667
S/Lt. Johnsen, C. Captain”

It then goes on to describe an attack carried out on U-Boat at 17.25 on the 16th in position 63 05’N 03 10’E. On the second pass, four depth charges were dropped from 50 feet. Four were seen to explode close to the port side of the U-Boat. Thirty seconds after the attack, the bows were seen to be at a very steep angle – they then settled and the boat submerged stern first about one minute after the attack.

The account in the 333 Squadron ORB describes, as you say, an attack on a boat just after midnight, with results unclear.

Where I’m getting confused is – the Experten over at the uboat website, who track the fates of the various subs, seem to feel that the Sunderland attacked U-668, which went on its way undamaged. They apparently changed their minds after earlier having listed the Sunderland as having sunk U-240. Not sure why they made this decision, especially in light of your note of Hartmann having met von Eickstedt post-war.

They may not be aware of the ‘Flying Cats’ book. I’m going to make a pest of myself and copy your information across to them.

330 Squadron is reported to have started with 18 Northrop N-3B seaplanes, next the Sq received 6 Catalinas, then moving to Sunderlands operating out of Iceland and Shetlands…or at least this is what my digging has found. I was not there. 😉

Chris
Images and Illustrations at
http://www.printroom.com/pro/ShepArtStudio

Hi Super Sioux:

Does the book say whether U-668 was also attacked earlier that day by the 330 Sqn Sunderland?

The uboat.net guys seem to think this is the case, having changed their mind from an earlier assessment that the Sunderland attacked (and sank) U-240 (which, having read the entry in the relevant ORB, sounds pretty plausible).

Hi mhuxt, there is no mention of Sunderlands in 330 Squadron, have you made a mistake? U-668 was sighted after midnight by the 333 Squadron CATALINA and attacked.
U-423 was attacked and sunk by FP183 of 333 Squadron on the 17/6/44 with the use of a 6 depthcharge attack. Maybe this is a better subject for Chris?
Ray.

I have it from a couple Norwegian Air History sources that the side markings are in the two tone yellow scheme with a 3 forward of the Blister. This was pre KK that came a bit later. Also that the armament was probably Browning NOT Vickers….they are trying to check that…..any thoughts?

I have yet to add the Radar(tv antenna) array on the wings, change out the side lettering and muck up the paint some more.

I’ll get this thing done sooner or later or never!!! I’ll post an updated image after the next round of changes.

Chris
Images and Illustrations at
http://www.printroom.com/pro/ShepArtStudio

Hi Super Sioux:

Does the book say whether U-668 was also attacked earlier that day by the 330 Sqn Sunderland?

The uboat.net guys seem to think this is the case, having changed their mind from an earlier assessment that the Sunderland attacked (and sank) U-240 (which, having read the entry in the relevant ORB, sounds pretty plausible).

Just another twist in the saga of ‘Jossing’ versus U668. According to ‘Flying Cats’ by Andrew Hendrie published 1986 by Airlife the U668 was not sunk only damaged! The pilot of FP121 Sub-Lt Harald Hartmann met the captain of the U668 after the war when Wolfgang von Eickstedt was a priest in Hamburg and they became friends and thus the author had personal accounts from the two former antagonists a unique event in his study of such combats.
Chris was right about the 6 depth charges dropped but the U668 applied hard rudder and escaped damage from the depth charges. In the mass sinking after 8/5/1945 of Uboats, U688 finally met her end.
FP121 served with 202-210 Squadrons, then Norwegian Flight 1477 of Coastal Command finally 333 Squadron.
Chris you have done a mighty fine painting, sorry I cant help with the aircrafts codes and paint scheme
Ray

Here is the latest update per the action report addendum found in the back of the log. 6 Depth Charges in a string. Dropped the whole load on em!

I believe the Squadron’s papers are NOT in order. The JV 933 is listed as , on May 26, JV.933 B/333 Arrived for this Squadron. I would think that means it is a replacement A/C?
Though in the monthly Summery for the Squadron, the aircraft is now called D/333, not the C???

I believe the Sophomoric philosophy is kicking in
“The more you study, the more you learn. The more you learn, the more you forget. The more you forget, the less you know! So WHY STUDY!”

Would someone please ring up the CO and ask him why he signed off on a this load of claptrap!

Sorry, just getting a bit frustrated

If anyone can cut through this fog….PLEASE DO!

Chris
Images and Illustrations at
http://www.printroom.com/pro/ShepArtStudio

Sinking U-Boats is the tricky thing. They are designed to do that. 😉 Though, it does sound like they hit her hard. One of those Mysteries of the Deep!

Thanks for the heads up on the more detailed description of the event, I’ll have to get back in there and do some reading. As for the JV933…I’m perplexed. Have to hit the books some more.

Oh Well, the twists and turns of history!!!
Here is the Illustration as it stands at the moment
Chris
Images and Illustrations at
http://www.printroom.com/pro/ShepArtStudio

Hi Chris:

Those are the summary details you’ve quoted, on page 337 in the Adobe page number window in the small “navigation” toolbar at the bottom of the window.

The blow-by-blow, with times and positions, can be found on pages 363 to 366 (of 440) of the file. Page 363 is where I’m getting the “JV933” information from. JV933 seems to have been back in action from the 5th of June onwards, again as “C”.

I saw your posts over on the U-Boat forum. One of the researchers there thinks it may have been U-241. Not sure if there’s information as to where U-668 was at the time.

I still think the account of the 330 Squadron aircraft earlier that day (in the relevant ORB) makes it sound like the U-Boat attacked was sunk – bows well up out of the water, settled by the stern … Maybe they got U-240 after all.

Thanks Pandskater
Let me know if you see anything in the movie.
I seem to recall an old movie with Cats in it but it has been a long time ago. I built a 1/72 scale many years ago and have always had a soft spot for the ungainly bird. My old boss was rescued by one after he put his P-40 in the trees on Java(I think) flying with the Free Dutch AF.

They have a couple cats at the US Naval Aviation Museum that I have got to go and grab some shots of, about 400 miles from here! In due time!

I wasn’t about to do a Spitfire! One rivet out of place and I’d be crucified! 😉
Chris
Images and Illustrations at
http://www.printroom.com/pro/ShepArtStudio

Chris,

Your mention of movies clips reminded me that the Crown Film Unit produced a film “Coastal Command” in 1942 as a propaganda piece showing both a Sunderland and a Catalina in operations. It has been available on video but might be hard to find. I’ve got a copy and will make time to watch it again (no great hardship 😉 ) and can let you know how useful it might be.

It is on IMDB: http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0034603

Here is a clipping from the squadron 333 Log if anyone is interested. Best as I can make out. It is slow tedious reading unless you know just what day you are looking for, radio training, life raft training, PT, small arms drill, aircraft ID , intell breifings….page after smudgy page.
………………………..
333 Squadron Log Book

Pg 13

16/5/44 Woodhaven
1a/c Catalina C/333 – capt. S/Lt. Hartmann, carried out A/U patrol in special area.

17/5/44
Cont/…
Catalina C/333, pilot S/Lt. Hartmann, returned to base from operations being in contact with 2probably U-Boats. A/C was seriously damaged by A/A from U-Boat during attack, which was determined and vigerous carried out in slight darkness. The U-Boat suffered great damage and an extensive explosion in the conning tower was seen by the crew 10 mins. After attack. The starboard blister gunner, Pty/O O. Kyrre-Berg Danielsen, was killed by a shell exploding between navigators and engineers apartments. –The Captain was congratulated on his skill in handling a damaged boat in a successful force landing.

The day was celebrated in a pleasant and fraternized way, with Minister O. Torp as guest. All sorts of games was accomplished and in the afternoon Minister Torp held a speech. The evening was spent in the various …………

Cont

18544
…..
Catalina C/333 marked F.P. 121 reported damaged on the 17th. A/C moved into dock at Woodhaven. Excellent salvage work supported by maintainance personell.
………………………….

Thanks again
Chris
Images and Illustrations at
http://www.printroom.com/pro/ShepArtStudio

Another silly question

How much fire would be coming from the exhaust on the Cat’s engines. I imagine they would be “balls to the wall” and jinking all over the place trying to spoil the aim. This attack was in “low light”. Any pics or movie clips of a similar engine running to get a Flame Level?
Thanks

Chris

As I said, this is a work in progress. I am still working the paintjob, the sky, the water, the flak. I have yet to dirty her up.The problem with nice pictures of well kept museum pieces is that they ARE TOO pretty! They don’t let the grime accumulate.

Props…would they be yellow tipped…to get my look that would probably be the only thing seen in lower light(as was the time of the attack )

Depth charges?? any pics? might they be Type XIIIs, still trying to find info. DC mounts..any pics, seeking info…been digging page by page through the Squadron Log…what I probably would need is the A/C maint. log, not that I would understand the abbreviations and Mechanic lingo!

antenna? Still hunting…Some birds were equipped with radar by this point. I know her Newer squadron mates did but have nothing to substantiate the upgrade.

This is not the Jossing II, Jossing II was named to replace this bird after she sank up to her wing after landing damaged.

Thanks again for the comments. I will drop and updated image at some point as I get more info in. Solid information…It is like searching for a needle in a haystack, blindfolded, with one’s hands tied behind one’s back!

Thanks again
Chris

Images and Illustrations at
http://www.printroom.com/pro/ShepArtStudio