Caudron Luciole G-ATIP

….. my main concern would whether there’s any chance the ownership of this could be contested given some of the earlier posts on this topic – always a worry especially in America…

Is it in the USA? McPheat Automotive, which appears to be offering it for sale, gives an address in Lancashire.

Would look v nice at a shuttleworth display as a trio act along with a moth and a jungmann/meister. I guess they maybe want similar money to a moth for it ? my main concern would whether there’s any chance the ownership of this could be contested given some of the earlier posts on this topic – always a worry especially in America…

It will be ( it is to be hoped ) a flyer, and if the wooden longerons, spars, ribs etc have got rot or woodworm, then replacement is the only way forward.  Looking at the collapsed hangar where it lurked for many years,  major decay is almost inevitable.

It is the same situation as the flying mosquitos with new-build fuselages,  and I think those receive general approval ! 

….. and it isn’t even a Spitfire!

‘all new fuselage, wings, cowling, horizontal stabiliser & rudder as well as all new landing gear’ a bit like Trigger and his broom then! 

This photo supposedly shows EI-ARF,  and the ‘ventilated’ look about the hangar is perhaps the collapse referred to on the previous page.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/59854275@N07/16457950294

This (probably) airframe has  now emerged for sale in the USA

”This extremely rare Caudron C277 has been restored to an extraordinarily high standard and just needs a few jobs doing in order to finish it off and make it airworthy. It came out of the Ryder Fighter Museum and has since had all new fuselage, wings, cowling, horizontal stabiliser & rudder as well as all new landing gear. The engine is a Renault 4P, currently stripped down but found to be in excellent order and ready for meticulous assembly, something you’d probably want to do rather than taking someone’s word for it having been done.

All flight controls and gauges are present other than the air speed recorder & altimeter. It’s currently licensed as “experimental” by the FAA, common practice for this type of aircraft. Whilst it has had in the region of $200000 spent on the restoration the owner is happy to sell for a fraction of this cost.
​
Used in the Hollywood films “The Blue Max” (released 1966) and “Von Richthofen & Brown” “released 1971”.

https://afors.com/aircraftView/51445
​

Hi Lynn

Are you able to shed any light on the G-ATIO mystery which is related in detail through this thread but remains unsolved?

Pretty please?

Hello all- I am proud to have owned and flown the planes in the Blue Max Collection. I can answer questions directly, as time permits, in regards to the history of these aircraft.
Also, I am wanting to open discussion about EI-APW. It has been missing since the mid 1990’s. It was taken, without permission, from where it was stored. Recently, it surfaced on another chat forum, and the folks that have it are not responding to requests to return this stolen aircraft to us.
Please see the photo album that has been created along with my profile here, as there are many other photos of the collection, as well as the photos that Mr Boddington has recently shared.

Hats off to you all, and happy landings!

Hi Lynn

Are you able to shed any light on the G-ATIO mystery which is related in detail through this thread but remains unsolved?

Hi Lynn

Good to see you on here, maybe you should start a new post for the Triplane?

Blue Max Collection

Hello all- I am proud to have owned and flown the planes in the Blue Max Collection. I can answer questions directly, as time permits, in regards to the history of these aircraft.
Also, I am wanting to open discussion about EI-APW. It has been missing since the mid 1990’s. It was taken, without permission, from where it was stored. Recently, it surfaced on another chat forum, and the folks that have it are not responding to requests to return this stolen aircraft to us.
Please see the photo album that has been created along with my profile here, as there are many other photos of the collection, as well as the photos that Mr Boddington has recently shared.

Hats off to you all, and happy landings!

I’ve looked again at Tony’s right hand image and at the photo of G-ATIO which appears in Jackson and the wing tips in the former do not appear to tally with those in the latter. Furthermore if it is G-ATIO which appears in the right hand image then it had undergone severe cosmetic surgery since its F-PHQM days!

Hello all,
I am not sure if this will confuse the situation even further, but I came across these two not very sharp copies of a Luciole at Baldonnel and Weston. The serial numbers on both are the same. Does this give credence to the theory that there were two Lucioles at Baldonnel or is the crash scene merely a mock up ? But thats me always causing confusion!
Tony K

The left hand image certainly appears to be G-ATIP. If not for the indication given by the serial number, I couldn’t even say, with certainty, that the right hand image is of a Luciole! Given its subsequent history, its unlikely to be G-ATIP. But if it is an image of a Luciole then, perhaps, it is of the destruction of G-ATIO. However to me it looks more like a staged crash scene. I accept the possibility that G-ATIO could have been ‘torched’, on the ground, for a scene in the film. I doubt that a Luciole was worth a great deal in 1965! However equally it could have been a mock-up used to film a crash scene that appears in the right hand image. Can anyone say whether the scene portrayed in the right hand image appears in the film (or ended up on the cutting room floor!) and whether any mock-ups were used in the film?

Hello all,
I am not sure if this will confuse the situation even further, but I came across these two not very sharp copies of a Luciole at Baldonnel and Weston. The serial numbers on both are the same. Does this give credence to the theory that there were two Lucioles at Baldonnel or is the crash scene merely a mock up ? But thats me always causing confusion!
Tony K

No, as yet nothing has turned up on TIO 🙁 all pics are of TIP. You never know what might turn up, will keep looking. Here another one of TIP, same film different colour!!

Thanks, Blue Max. I assume that the Weston photos are of G-ATIP and that you have not yet dug up anything more relating to the fate of G-ATIO.

A couple of fairly low rez shots talken at Weston durring filming of “Von Richtoffen And Brown.

Claude Roussueau was responsible for producing the three Fokker DVII’s for the film. I can only assume that the Luciole came along in the deal, maybe for use as a camera ship?? nothing’s coming up at the mo but i’ll keep digging!!
Any one else got anything??

This looks interesting. Maybe there was only one Luciole involved in ‘The Blue Max’? However the evidence that I have seen tends not to support this theory.

For the record, the following information concerning F-PHQM/G-ATIO is in the DGAC and CAA records:

F-PHQM Caudron C.276 C/n 7207-26 Last owner Claude Rousseau; cancelled as sold abroad 24.08.65

G-ATIO Caudron C.276 C/n 7207-26 Registered 09.09.65; cancelled as destroyed 23.11.65

Jackson records it as having been airfreighted from Dinard to Baldonnel in DC-3 F-BAXR (also owned by Claude Rousseau) in June 1965. Assuming that this is correct,then it would appear that it did make it to Ireland. Equally one assumes that it survived until at least September 1965 in order that it became relevant to register it with the CAA (I assume that all ‘The Blue Max’ aircraft were UK registered initially). So was it destroyed at some time between 09.09.65 and 23.11.65? If so, when and in what circumstances.

For those who saw ‘The Blue Max’ aircraft at the time of the filming, it wouldn’t have been too difficult to distinguish between the two Lucioles (unless they underwent cosmetic surgery for filming purposes). F-AOFD/F-PHQM/G-ATIO was a C.276 with an enclosed cockpit, canopy, high back rear fuselage and 105 hp Hirth engine – whereas F-AQFB/G-ATIP/F-BNMB/EI-ARF/N907AC was a C.277 with an open cockpit, a low back rear fuselage and a 120 hp Renault engine. With its enclosed cockpit and canopy, I would think that G-ATIO would have some difficulty passing itself off as a WW1 aircraft of any kind. Do these differences ring bells with anyone?

No takers, I assume?

This looks interesting. Maybe there was only one Luciole involved in ‘The Blue Max’? However the evidence that I have seen tends not to support this theory.

For the record, the following information concerning F-PHQM/G-ATIO is in the DGAC and CAA records:

F-PHQM Caudron C.276 C/n 7207-26 Last owner Claude Rousseau; cancelled as sold abroad 24.08.65

G-ATIO Caudron C.276 C/n 7207-26 Registered 09.09.65; cancelled as destroyed 23.11.65

Jackson records it as having been airfreighted from Dinard to Baldonnel in DC-3 F-BAXR (also owned by Claude Rousseau) in June 1965. Assuming that this is correct,then it would appear that it did make it to Ireland. Equally one assumes that it survived until at least September 1965 in order that it became relevant to register it with the CAA (I assume that all ‘The Blue Max’ aircraft were UK registered initially). So was it destroyed at some time between 09.09.65 and 23.11.65? If so, when and in what circumstances.

For those who saw ‘The Blue Max’ aircraft at the time of the filming, it wouldn’t have been too difficult to distinguish between the two Lucioles (unless they underwent cosmetic surgery for filming purposes). F-AOFD/F-PHQM/G-ATIO was a C.276 with an enclosed cockpit, canopy, high back rear fuselage and 105 hp Hirth engine – whereas F-AQFB/G-ATIP/F-BNMB/EI-ARF/N907AC was a C.277 with an open cockpit, a low back rear fuselage and a 120 hp Renault engine. With its enclosed cockpit and canopy, I would think that G-ATIO would have some difficulty passing itself off as a WW1 aircraft of any kind. Do these differences ring bells with anyone?

Hi Tony

Hoped you would spot this one and jump in, great pic from Paddy. If you see him some time, he said he would put some pics on a disc for me when i saw him at the reunion.

Maybe we are all chasing somthing that never existed, the Luciole is listed as distroyed in Eire in 1965 but maybe it was not durring filming??
Lynn garrison thinks is crashed and was used as set dressing and burned, maybe it didnt crash durring filming??

Matthew