Channel 4 Time Team Invader Dig

Does that mean you now have a scrap value Nick ?

Yep – so when I get tatty and decrepit like a certain Vulcan, I’ll have to watch out 😀

I am wondering how it will affect my Forster though – as it is I have to take off my watch to tune it in!!! 😉

Does that mean you now have a scrap value Nick ?

Thanks Elliott – back at work now – two weeks earlier than anticipated! Managed my first wreck foray last week – Oxford BM837 of 410 Sqn – flown by Flt Lt Cybulski who was injured in the crash – he was the chap flying the famous Mossie that was photographed badly scorched after a Do217 he was attacking blew up as he closed in.

Feeling much better than before as kept getting out of breath & over tired – defect was from birth apparently but only showed up after I collapsed taking the TT people out on the marsh in Feb last year – I now have £3500 worth of Titanium alloy patching me up – should be fun at airports 😉

Sorry to hear you had a heart op Nick. Hope you are recovering well.

I was bound by a promise to the TT not to reveal too much – but am now willing to answer any questions – we have some 700+ photos & as I am still off work following my heart op I intend to use the time to get a decent page on our website ASAP.

I note on the other thread questions raised about getting involved with TV & have to confess it was a difficult decision – we have been approached several times & before this and turned most down – we have also been asked for stories by national papers & done the same – One of our main concerns was how any relatives may react and this project was done with the full consent of those we managed to trace.

What we do is: keep the interesting bits for display and/or reference available to restoration/reconstruction projects and scrap the rest to avoid it from falling into the “wrong” hands. The sold scrap also covers some of the costs of the recovery (hiring the digger etc.). Nothing else is sold. Cees

I think this about covers the way most responcible groups deal with wreckage recovered – As many of our digs are on grazing land we usually have to take every scrap away to prevent animals trying to eat any fragments remaining – it amazes me what cows will try to eat 😮 This leaves us often with two or three tons of material to sort through, which takes time! But often some of the most interesting finds can be made sifting through this material – more than one engine limitations plate has turned up during this process.

All material is washed down and every piece inspected & either put aside for further cleaning or onto the “clean” scrap pile or the mixed scrap pile. one or two pieces are also put aside for presentation mounting for the farmer or anyone else who has particularly helped with a project – We do not agree with selling any items other than for recycling – the money then being used to offset costs.

We have all seen the items offered on ebay & this gives an unfair view of our hobby to those outside it – I regularly note the items for sale & it is only a handful of sellers responcible – one individual seems to have an inexhaustable supply of small bits of labelled crud from famous sites, which often go for fantastic sums – he also seems to have a knack of advertising bits connected with TV documentaries just after they have been shown – including battle of France items and items from the TT Spitfire dig 😡 Another often sells dubiously deactivated ammo from a well known B17 site in Scotland – since when did diesel deactivate detonators in .50 rounds 😮

But the worst IMO is when personal property items from dig comes up for sale – my opinion of those who sell such items is not repeatable here! However eBay are not interested – believe me I let them know when it happens – but I suppose they are getting their cut 😡 !

Hi Merlin,

Why not, people with an opinion will usually never change it for some reason. But by being open about what is done in the field of aviation archeology a clearer picture is available.

It wouldn’t stop me from providing information, although the situation in the UK is different compared to the Dutch situation (but not totally, as there are issues over here as well).

Cees

Sounds about right Cees but some folks think that EVERYTHING MUST be preserved.

And as mentioned before everyone has a right to their own opinion. As of yet I have never sold anything I have recovered as I have no idea of the legal issues that accompany the route. I guess some folks just get the wrong idea of just what it is us folks do.

So that is why I will post no more on the subject.

What we do is: keep the interesting bits for display and/or reference available to restoration/reconstruction projects and scrap the rest to avoid it from falling into the “wrong” hands. The sold scrap also covers some of the costs of the recovery (hiring the digger etc.). Nothing else is sold.

My two cents

Cees

As has already pointed out everyone is entitled to their own view.

However I must make it clear there are a large number of people who feel it is morally wrong to sell parts from crashed aircraft, particularly where crew were killed, even for charity.

I know it is all too easy to find parts for sale from digs and high ground sites, but it doesn’t make it right, legally or morally.

Also there isn’t much that can be done with the crystalline corrosion products found on Warton Marsh, it wouldn’t even be possible to smelt them.

Alan

Mark V,

As everyone has pointed out at some point or another we are all entitled to our own opinions.

So what would you do with piles of corroded useable metal?

Not every museum will be interested in the efforts of your dig. So what else do you do with it.

Hide it away in your shed or back garden?
Leave it on site? Which raises the question if you know it was there in the first place and leave it there why bother digging it up. (Of course digging things up has a lot more involved than just digging it has to do with understanding the wreck itself and hopefully getting a really nice find)

If it were me I would have photographed all pieces of wreck not going to be kept or given away and created a dvd/cd rom of the pictures then smelted the remaining scrap to be made into die cast models to be sold with the cds and a certificate telling the buyer of the dig that their model came from. All profits to be given to a named charity.

Doenst sound like that bad an idea to me. But of course that is my opinion and what my idea of unsuable and useless is might be entirely different to yours.

Warton Junk Yard

As to other remains, there was a pile of damaged aircraft near the western end of the main runway, whilst the base was still occupied by the USAAF. Could it be that they were all bulldozed off the base?

Hi – I have spoken to several locals over the years & it seem that many of those who were boys at the time gained access to this area – Many Hadrian gliders were dumped here at the end of the war & local boys used the wings to make rafts on the river. I have also spoken to a metal detectorist who tried his luck on the area, but the ground is seeded with hundreds of 9mm sidearm rounds so he gave up.

Also I have heard of material dumped on the marsh – though of course it was not the marsh we know today – one local came forward on the TT dig & offered to show us where boxes of tools were dumped! Finally the heavily corroded A-26 leg recovered during the TT dig is almost certainly not off either of the aircraft excavated – there were several A-26 U/C collapse incidents on the base – but why go to the trouble of dragging it out on the marsh? I can only assume a local wanted it to tie a boat to?

Other parts in the Marsh?

I put a post on the C4 Time Team discussion, of my recollections of the A26 collision; I remain convinced that one of the aircraft was on fire and loosing altitude before the collision.

As to other remains, there was a pile of damaged aircraft near the western end of the main runway, whilst the base was still occupied by the USAAF.

The base was completely accessible from the seaward boundary, and it was possible to walk there from Lytham.

One of these aircraft was an almost complete Black Widow; I had never seen one before.

Could it be that they were all bulldozed off the base?

Couldnt you use the Tornado imaging system mentioned earlier?? 🙂

Well there’s certainly no harm in asking I suppose! 😉

Missing turret

If i recall correctly, they briefly showed the upper turret with both guns, but when lifting the rear fuselage the bottom was missing. Was that underside turret located ?

Yes the missing turret was found about half way between the tail and the rest of the aircraft in a tidal gutter. It was in poor condition and the guns had been removed. There was no surrounding airframe and no damage that could be attributed to propeller contact.

you have to find them first!

Couldnt you use the Tornado imaging system mentioned earlier?? 🙂

2. Yes one gun was X-rayed on site and declared clear – two others were still in their turret which meant that X-ray was not practical on site – However after all three had been declared clear they were then all inexplicably taken to a range, as quoted and “made safe”, by blowing them to pieces – the bits were then delivered to the RAF Millom museum in a sack!!!

Contents of the sack mentioned above

If anyone is intrested there is also another discusion taking place on one of the Time Team forums

http://community.channel4.com/eve/ubb.x?q=Y&a=tpc&s=162603557&f=8896096411&m=5530011531&p=1

Just to prove everything didnt go to plan, get out of that. I suppose we could come back in another 60 years and dig it up.

Thanks NW. Much else hiding in that marsh do you think?

P-51D, Mosquito – oh and just a Ju88 😀 – convincing English Nature to allow any other excavations is not going to be easy though 🙁 + you have to find them first!

What these aircraft are is essentially scrap metal.
I would have salvaged all usable or intact parts and then smelted the rest for casting small cast models of the aircraft.

And you call yourself an Aviation Archaeologist? 😮