China wants to buy Rafales for it's fleet of carriers?

why i put link. that manufacture MMIC. and what is meant by mass production. usually u need a few dozen radars for testing and few thousand modules.

A single AESA fighter radar has from 500 (the Vixen 500E, intended for light fighters, armed trainers, etc) up to 2000 or so (the APG-77) T/R modules. The nose of a Su-30 could hold an antenna with even more. Mass production means, at a minimum, the ability to build enough for all the antennae customers for the fighters might want, which means hundreds of thousands. E.g. to fit all the currently planned Typhoons with the CAESAR antenna would take about 1 million T/R modules.

So no, not a few thousand. That’s low-rate production for prototypes. A few dozen radars would need tens of thousands. Mass means at least 100 000 per year.

it is more speculation. the only reason will be if J-10 use updated avionic/weopon system compare to early 80s Flanker. I would take 1 Su-33 over 3 rafales.

it was versus su-30mkk, that’s not early 80s flanker.

these are not politicians. they are company officials. can toyota official make false claims regarding performance.

geez, now you trust corporate officials? I have far more respect for engineers who make comments than officials trying to sell product.

it may have cost extra money so they may want simpler radar. ZHUK-ME/Kopyo/MSE uses the same software and technlogy. so no reason to believe if one is ready the other will be not.

you are telling me China actually wanted the piece of junk aka N-001VEP instead of Zhuk-MSE?

why i put link. that manufacture MMIC. and what is meant by mass production. usually u need a few dozen radars for testing and few thousand modules.

right, why don’t you show me where in Russia you guys have plants with the capability of mass producing gallium arsenide chips. Show me how advanced the Russian semiconductor technology is.

why i has nothing to with the topic? I just showed other countries are even worse in fullfilling export contracts.

has nothing to do with su-33

when customer requirements are changed they have to change the schedule. there is nothing technical about it. it is objectives that was changed. now every thing is fixed untill 2009.

that’s not the only time that schedules get changed.

hmm, they interviewed with the people that were watching the military exercises between flankers and J-10. Flankers were getting hammered. Whether you believe it or not will not change the fact. Again, I don’t want to turn this into J-10 vs flanker thread. I’m telling you that if China could get Rafale instead of su-33, it would. In fact, I think I would take 1 Rafale over 2 su-33s.

it is more speculation. the only reason will be if J-10 use updated avionic/weopon system compare to early 80s Flanker. I would take 1 Su-33 over 3 rafales.

Are you even listening to yourself? Politicians don’t lie now?

these are not politicians. they are company officials. can toyota official make false claims regarding performance.

huh? the good old Zhuk-MSE. That really was helpful. Remember when it was suppose to be ready? And notice who it never got on any mkk?

it may have cost extra money so they may want simpler radar. ZHUK-ME/Kopyo/MSE uses the same software and technlogy. so no reason to believe if one is ready the other will be not.

again, it’s not the radar itself, it’s the components for the radar that’s the problem. Where do you have a Russian plant that is mass producing T/R modules?

why i put link. that manufacture MMIC. and what is meant by mass production. usually u need a few dozen radars for testing and few thousand modules.

because I’m tired of you bringing stuff into the argument that has nothing to do with the topic.

why i has nothing to with the topic? I just showed other countries are even worse in fullfilling export contracts.

that’s what you think. Are you the project manager now? I mean have you ever worked before? How often do you think engineering project have to make changes in the middle and then take longer than they should.

when customer requirements are changed they have to change the schedule. there is nothing technical about it. it is objectives that was changed. now every thing is fixed untill 2009.

again rumours and speculation. there is a reason F-22/F-15/MIG-31/Su-27 are for intereception. Large fighters impart greater speed and range to BVR missile. and it is the first shoot at greater distance is the advantage. and how Flankers is not high. china has the highest number of Flankers. just fuel and training pilots for them will cost alot of money.

hmm, they interviewed with the people that were watching the military exercises between flankers and J-10. Flankers were getting hammered. Whether you believe it or not will not change the fact. Again, I don’t want to turn this into J-10 vs flanker thread. I’m telling you that if China could get Rafale instead of su-33, it would. In fact, I think I would take 1 Rafale over 2 su-33s.

there is big difference between private claims and official claims. these officials cannot say things which they cannot fullfil.

Are you even listening to yourself? Politicians don’t lie now?

how is russia radar promise spotty?. compared to what? it took 7 years for F-16E/M2K9 contract to fullfill after signing. ur is just rumours and speculation.

huh? the good old Zhuk-MSE. That really was helpful. Remember when it was suppose to be ready? And notice who it never got on any mkk?

how is that believing that they will have the technology for MIG-35.

again, it’s not the radar itself, it’s the components for the radar that’s the problem. Where do you have a Russian plant that is mass producing T/R modules?

so why it is negative point. u tried to turn into it.

because I’m tired of you bringing stuff into the argument that has nothing to do with the topic.

where is the problem with M1? it was the change of design objectives thats why it took so long. so it be fitted to present ruaf flankers without modification and training of maintainance crew (complexity). now design path is freeze upto M5. only certification is left.

that’s what you think. Are you the project manager now? I mean have you ever worked before? How often do you think engineering project have to make changes in the middle and then take longer than they should.

Well, procurement issue was not “what is the best plane for the navy mission?” but rather “what plane can we get?”.
After that, it is obvious ppl like star49 are too ignorant to understand the basics of procurement.

I think we established long ago they can only get su-33. No one else will sell them anything worthwhile on this front. Somehow it just spiralled into which AC is better suite for IN or in general.

I’m not getting it. They say they want to buy Sukhoi-33 and from that news only you can conclude they want Rafale??? talking about fuzzy logic… Maybe they want Superhornets? Or why not even conclude they want F-35C??? Strange conclusions if you ask me. I think it means they want Su-33 as that’s pretty much what’s been written there!

The scorpène is a submarine

if they can spend billions and timefor 50 person crew submarine because it is silent so it is protective and will not spend the right amount of money and time so its 2000 person aircraft carrier is not top of the line.

1) Of course it’s not yet at that moment, I wrote it yesterday. The point is that YOU said the M88-3 cannot be available before 10 years. I said that engine can be available around 2010.
2) There is such thing as proposing. I doubt that a company can have lots of products but don’t even know if there are some customers all around.

the point is u dont have the engine thats u r not putting in ur own forces. it is not the case for Flankers. there engine was designed for bigger MIG fighter and now it is for another fifth generation. Flanker are existing engine modification without complexity.

My point: the rafale, if “underpowered” for your taste can have a smooth upgrade for it.
Your opint: The flanker has perhaps an upgrade but that hasn’t been made for it.

look above. rafale is underpowered because it does not thave the engine.

Could you give me a link that establish that ot took a full decade ?

it was signed in 1997 and now it is 2006. has it been completed and half of the aircraft are just upgrade.

5 or 10 years ? The UAE has -9 and not -5

it does not matter any where u look around it is the same time frame.

link, sources, articles please

look when algerain deal was signed for SMT and first aircraft is delieverd with in this year.

Link, source, articles please.

it is in this forum. search for turkey and f-16.

What hasn’t been updated ?

every thing. payload, range, engine, MTOW.

A prototype ….

fully developed plane ready for immediate production but not new one like MIG-29K.

The F-15K was available before the RAfale Mk2, no problem but the Mk2 was still in the 2008 range, so compatible with Korean requirements.

this is ur assumption.

I never state that the Rafale was a better choice for the IN.
About a Su-33 Mki, I’m not that sure. The rafale is an operationnal plane, I’m not sure the Su-33 can be seen as such;

Su-33 alteast in air to air role. Su-27KUB fully certified with another radar.

“Old” Mig-29K ? What’s the new one ?

the new one is IN not built before.

and why they would buy russian carrier? they could go the french way like Scorpene.

The scorpène is a submarine

if it was ready they would have taken it. there is no such thing as proposing.

1) Of course it’s not yet at that moment, I wrote it yesterday. The point is that YOU said the M88-3 cannot be available before 10 years. I said that engine can be available around 2010.
2) There is such thing as proposing. I doubt that a company can have lots of products but don’t even know if there are some customers all around.

how much thrust was produced for MIG-1.42 flight.

My point: the rafale, if “underpowered” for your taste can have a smooth upgrade for it.
Your opint: The flanker has perhaps an upgrade but that hasn’t been made for it.

putting some radar modes and certifying some air to ground weopons should not take a decade.

Could you give me a link that establish that ot took a full decade ?

smooth evolution for M2k/F-16? it takes more than 5 years just to upgrade from M2K to M2K-5 (greek/uae)

5 or 10 years ? The UAE has -9 and not -5

but it takes only 6 months to upgrade Mig-29 to SMT standard.

link, sources, articles please

just look at F-16MLU for Turkey. first aircraft after 6 years.

Link, source, articles please.

u are incorrect. that MIG website is not updated.

What hasn’t been updated ?

i didnot mentioned its final version. it is old MIG-29M with TVC. not new built.

A prototype ….

i am sure ROK has time line in mind. they got F-15 way earlier with full multirole capability than only air to air version Rafale.

The F-15K was available before the RAfale Mk2, no problem but the Mk2 was still in the 2008 range, so compatible with Korean requirements.

Rafale can’t take off from IN carriers end of story. Even if it could have Su-33MKI is a better option than rafale.

I never state that the Rafale was a better choice for the IN.
About a Su-33 Mki, I’m not that sure. The rafale is an operationnal plane, I’m not sure the Su-33 can be seen as such;

the Mig-29K range is close to 2100km. 1850 is for the old Mig-29K.

“Old” Mig-29K ? What’s the new one ?

Rafale in essense has the same range as mirage2k despite larger size.

You really don’t know anything about french plane 🙂
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Rafale 1100Nm for the Rafale M
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_2000 890Nm

And for low altitude mission, I can’t even imagine :diablo:

[/QUOTE]
Atleast it can be upgraded with AESA radar in future. Does thales even have a plan for AESA?[/QUOTE]
Already answered, but that’s only a clue that the information about french planes isn’t common.

They don’t use russian gear because they know that russian planes are inferior to western planes. Thus, they turned down every russian offers during evaluations.

how can ROK/Singapore know anything. have they ever fought war by themselves. India has alteast 4 or 5 wars under its credentials on its own.

And if IN had gone for a real carrier (with catapultes, no ramp take-offs aircraft carrying cruiser) they would have a bought either Rafale or Super Hornet not Mig 29K or Su33. Once they bought the Admiral Gorshkov (modified STOBAR) they were trapped with a russian planes solution.

u have arbitrary definition of real carrier. were u going to do competition between two carriers on its merits without support ships.
No one is going to buy rafale/superhornet for evan land air force let alone putting on a carrier.

They don’t use russian gear because they know that russian planes are inferior to western planes. Thus, they turned down every russian offers during evaluations.

Shows how much you know. Korea’s new primary trainer is Russian (Be-103), have Russian rescue helos (Ka-32) and Russian armour.

But then again, in the US it takes rocket scientists to actually figure out in which country to buy decent stuff 😀

Hmmm wonder why american soldiers in Iraq are preffering Ak’s over M-16’s. Why does britain want to rent Mi-17’s and Mi-26 in afghanistan? Yes in avionics russians a little behind but atleast their stuff is rugged and reliable and not a hangar queen.

No IN would never ever have bought the F-18. Period. Rafale maybe but they would have opted for Su-33MKI due to commonality with IAF, which is another thing going in favour of Mig-29K. They designed their second carrier so that it can carry N-LCA and Mig-29k not rafale or whorenet.

The reason russian planes lost is the same. ROK and singapore AF’s use no russian gear.

They don’t use russian gear because they know that russian planes are inferior to western planes. Thus, they turned down every russian offers during evaluations.

And if IN had gone for a real carrier (with catapultes, no ramp take-offs aircraft carrying cruiser) they would have a bought either Rafale or Super Hornet not Mig 29K or Su33. Once they bought the Admiral Gorshkov (modified STOBAR) they were trapped with a russian planes solution.

Yes. I don’t know the story behind Ka-52 but the T-80’s were accepted as a part of russia’s debt pay off after they were evaluated and found to be suitable. Korea is not really a tank country they prefer a good Arty any day.

The reason russian planes lost is the same. ROK and singapore AF’s use no russian gear. Maybe the F-15k is superior to Rafale, atleast it can be upgraded with AESA radar in future. Does thales even have a plan for AESA?

Just a nit-pick, but actually, the ROK operates Ka52 (?) helos, T80 MBTs as well as Russian ATGMs and probably some other things I can’t remember OTTOMH. However, there was never a realistic chance of such a huge fighter contract going to anyone other then the Americans, and all the other bidders were pretty much just there to leverage better terms from the Americans and act as a fail-safe in case something really unexpected happens.

Anyways, as interesting as the F15 and mig29K are, I can’t really see how they relate to the issue in this thread, so can we try and bring the discussion just a little bit back on track guys?

And still it lost. Must really suck no?

Maybe the F-15k is superior to Rafale, atleast it can be upgraded with AESA radar in future. Does thales even have a plan for AESA?

Since they first flew an AESA technology demonstrator in December 2002, & on a Rafale in May 2003, I think they probably have. 😀 That one used US T/R modules, but their current one uses European ones.

India want to buy Mig-29K, why would the RAfale can be an option ?
BTW in fact, it seems that Russian MAKE India buy it with the carrier.
that speak for the quality of the plane.

Rafale can’t take off from IN carriers end of story. Even if it could have Su-33MKI is a better option than rafale.

So, I stand correct. A bigger plane than the rafale has a better range of “50 km”. By using your way of thinking, the range of the Mig-29 is ridiculous.

No star is right the Mig-29K range is close to 2100km. 1850 is for the old Mig-29K. Rafale in essense has the same range as mirage2k despite larger size.

The name of the winner of the competition has never been released.
Both planes were close, by knowing that the F-15 enjoyed a huge advantage with the ROK using US planes, it only means that the Rafale was ahead globally speaking AND that it was obviously the winner of the competition 🙂
AFter that, Korea bought the F-15 K (without AESA :D) but only to keep the american support.

[/QUOTE]
The reason russian planes lost is the same. ROK and singapore AF’s use no russian gear. Maybe the F-15k is superior to Rafale, atleast it can be upgraded with AESA radar in future. Does thales even have a plan for AESA?

India want to buy Mig-29K, why would the RAfale can be an option ?
BTW in fact, it seems that Russian MAKE India buy it with the carrier.
that speak for the quality of the plane.

and why they would buy russian carrier? they could go the french way like Scorpene. and what about the second carrier. carriers are fro 30 to 40 years.

Should a customer be interested into that engin it would be available in the next few years.
So, ok, the next decade, but not in 10 years.
And yes, even for 59 Rafale, SNECMA can propose a more powerful engine.
More to see in the M88 thread of that forum.

if it was ready they would have taken it. there is no such thing as proposing.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

how much thrust was produced for MIG-1.42 flight.

Stop mixing everything as soon as you lost an argument, just like the 40% more powerful AL-31 the line above.
You said “the mirage 2000-9 is a small upgrade”. I said it was the most complex upgrade that you can think of.

putting some radar modes and certifying some air to ground weopons should not take a decade.

And now you’re comparing it with the upgrade from the Mig-29 to the -29K (or -29SMT, it’s when figures are in your favor or not).
The new Mig-29 are nearly totally different, yes, perhaps that the airframe of the Mig couldn’t allowed Mig a smooth evolution in opposite with Mirage or F-16.

smooth evolution for M2k/F-16? it takes more than 5 years just to upgrade from M2K to M2K-5 (greek/uae)but it takes only 6 months to upgrade Mig-29 to SMT standard. just look at F-16MLU for Turkey. first aircraft after 6 years.

So, I stand correct. A bigger plane than the rafale has a better range of “50 km”. By using your way of thinking, the range of the Mig-29 is ridiculous.

u are incorrect. that MIG website is not updated.

The -OVT isn’t a final versions.

i didnot mentioned its final version. it is old MIG-29M with TVC. not new built.

The name of the winner of the competition has never been released.
Both planes were close, by knowing that the F-15 enjoyed a huge advantage with the ROK using US planes, it only means that the Rafale was ahead globally speaking AND that it was obviously the winner of the competition 🙂
AFter that, Korea bought the F-15 K (without AESA :D) but only to keep the american support.

i am sure ROK has time line in mind. they got F-15 way earlier with full multirole capability than only air to air version Rafale.

so why doesnt IN chose Rafale/Superhornet for its second carrier? and there decision was right even in first case.

IN chose Mig-29K because it doesn’t require a CAT unlike Rafale/Superhornet. This article by Admiral Arun Prakash on Indian Aircraft Carrier may be of interest to you guys.

India’s Quest for an Indigenous Aircraft Carrier