Chipmunk Question

Thanks DGH again, Robert and Rod.
Rod special thanks for such a comprehensive reply. I will take some time to chew over this. It is great to know that there are such experts out there to keep us informed. I am very grateful for your time.
Tony K

Thankyou Rod for the very full explaination – my head now hurts! 😀

I can now see how it all fits together but they must have had fun on the production line as the DHH / DHB numbers are only vaguely in the same area as the C1 numbers.

Interesting that after all this time we may have a new lead on the origins of 199, but as Tony asks what parts actually determine an aircrafts history. Is it best to describe 199 as a composite rather than ex C1-0013 or C1-0392 ?

Cheers again Rod,

Dave

Chipmunk fuselage numbers

DGH requested information on fusealge numbers.

Required by the Air Ministry as an identification of major components in order to make partial payments as the aircraft proceeds during the build and final assembly stages. When each item was ‘signed off’ by the AID inspector he completed a form which went to the payments office in Liverpool and thus what we would call ‘cash flow’ in todays terms was made to DH etc.

Chipmunks do not carry C1- numbers but for ease on the assembly line the inside of the luggage flap in the rear cockpit may have carried it either in chalk or white paint – the C1- number is the main ‘file’ number for all the component numbers to be held under with build details etc.

The Chipmunk fuselage is built in two halves and each is numbered DHH/F for a front fuselage and DHH/RF for the rear – Hatfield built using DHH and Broughton(Chester) using DHB. As these numbers are on a plate rivetted to the airframe the Aviation authorities prefer to use these rather than C1- or RAF serials from the paperwork supplied with the aircraft. As the front fuselage plate is generally the only one readily visible in the rear cockpit this is the one that gets used.

It should be noted that the RAF are only interested in the tail number(WB 549 etc) but under that system all the component numbers and their hours flown will be recorded.

Recording fuselage numbers against C1- and RAF serials is still an ongoing task
made easier by two tours around all RAF Chipmunks by both Bill Fisher and myself in 1964 & 1969. Production listings from DH have been useful but are by no means accurate except to help with build sequence. Letters to owners along with emails still go out from time to time in an effort to confirm some of the production runs of numbers and dates. It is not safe to assume that C1-,
serials of any of the overseas military and their fuselage numbers will run in sequence which is why some areas are still ‘waiting to be confirmed’

The DHB list is relatively easy as they built the largest proportion of 889 aircraft although there are two extra fuselages sent to Burma for repalcement
The DHH list has been a ‘nightmare’ but is now almost complete but it is doubtful if the last ten will ever be certain due to loss of airframes over the years to confirm.

The Hatfield list is complicated by eleven aircraft – G-ALWB and ten Danish T.20 aircraft. Hatfield were to build the first one hundred T.10’s for the RAF order of two hundred but almost as soon as production started they advised the Air Ministry that eleven DHH/F numbers would not be used and so they were cancelled. Although the numbering system is an Air Ministry one DH continued to give the eleven aircraft DHH numbers and so we finish up with one hundered and twenty two numbers for one hundred and eleven aircraft.

Further complications during inspections over the years especially in Australia have given us two DHH/F/111’s and two DHB/F/5’s and even C1-0111 appeared in Australia to add torment to the one hundred and eleven saga.

The Air Ministry have a requirement for component numbers to be stencilled on the starboard side of the aircraft and fuselage numbers were carried under the front cockpit very small in the case of the Chipmunk but quite large on the Percival Provost as a PAC/F number.

Anyone looking at the fuselage plate will find a date on there as well as the modification state along with the drawing number to which the fuselage was completed and if anyone has any of these DHH or DHB numbers and dates then I would be pleased to see them in order to cross check my records.

Whilst writing I have a query of my own … does anyone know which aircraft company used the code ‘LCG’ as they built major components for the Chipmunk programme along with Heston Aircraft, Percivals, Follands and Scottish Aviation to name but a few.

Best

Rod Brown

Irish Air Corps Chipmunks 199 & 200

Derby Aviation purchased two Chipmunk airframes ex 71 MU Bicester in Feb 1959 and registered them as G-APTF(WG 320 C1-0392) and G-APTG(WG 353
C1-0440). ‘PTG received a C of A on May 13th.1960 but the fuselage of ‘PTF remained in a shed at Burnaston where it was noted in August 1961.

WB 561 C1-0013 remains a mystery as after the crash in August 1955 it was struck off charge at 49 MU on Sept 6th.1955 as reduced to components. No sales tender has been noted and the first sales of Chipmunk aircraft from storage did not occur until March 1956 from 9 MU Cosford so it is likely that it was held by the RAF in store for some time and possibly sold off with a ‘lot’ of spare items. It is known that Goodhew Aviation at Kidlington had such a stock most of which later moved to Burnaston.

When the order for two IAC aircraft was made it is pressumed that the fuselage of WG 320 was rejected and that of WB 561 was used instead and 199 was air tested by David Ogilvy with G-APTF chalked on the fin. The C of A was issued on February 12th.1965 and delivery by an Air Corps pilot was made with 200 on Feb 22nd.with entry to IAC service four days later. 199 was withdrawn from service at Gormanston in 1979.
The weight and balance schedule for ‘PTF was still on the inside of the luggage locker flap when I inspected the fuselage at Baldonnel in August 2004.

200 is much more straightforward being C1-0061 WB 620 EI-AJC/G-ARTP/
EI-AMH/G-ARTP. Converted at Burnaston with a C of A of Feb 7th.1965 it crashed at Gormanston whilst executing an overshoot killing both crewmen on April 24th.1980 – this was the only fatal Chipmunk accident in nearly thirty years with the IAC and caused the total withdrawl and grounding of the type

The C1- number for WB 635 is 0080 G-TRIC recently sold to Spain.

The fuselage numbering system will be dealt with in another posting

Best

Rod Brown

Chipmunk Question

Chipmunk 199 (along with 200) was with Derby Airways maintenance at Burnaston during the early 60s. I seem to recall being told that both aircraft were being prepared pre-delivery to the IAC and not in on routine maintenance. It may be worth considering that Derby Airways held a very large stock of ex-RAF Chipmunk airframes, so 199 could be a ‘composite’ of several aircraft.

Robert

Hello Tony,

The DHH/F/….. stamp inside the aircraft as far as I’m aware bears no relationship to the actual construction number of the aircraft. I dont know of any that match.

Maybe someone on here can enlighten us as to it’s purpose. :confused:

Various national aircraft registers around the world quote these codes as a serial or identification mark but they just dont match up!

Dave

Thanks Janie for the PM.

Thanks also to Dave. Yes IAC 199 is the one that is causing the query. It is always quoted as WG320 c/n0392, G APTF then IAC 199. I checked the fuselage (a shell only ) at Baldonnel today and find that it bears the stamp DHH/F/13 which belongs to c/n CI /0013 and which was WB561. This chipmunk is listed in the Air Britain serials as “control column jammed side slipped into ground South Cerney 23 August 1955” I wonder how much of WG320 was used in the rebuilding of 199. I would have thought therefore that the c/n for IAC 199 would have been 0013 or what is the criteria for rebuilding an aircraft?
Tony K

No problem Tony,

WB561 c/n 0013
WB635 c/n 0080
WG320 c/n 0392 this aircraft was written off in 1958 and parts were used to make IAC 199 – is this the aircraft you’re after??

Hope this helps,

Dave

PM on it’s way.

The MAP website can be found at http://www.mar.co.uk

Geoff.

I haven’t got any photos of the above Chipmunks, but in case there are any other ex-ATC reading this & wanting photos of Chipmunks they flew in, I do have photos of the following

WP981/D, WK554/4, WD363/5, WP977, possibly WB711, G-AMUF, & G-APYG.

Ian, I’ve checked my MAP CD-ROM catalogue for photos of your Chipmunks and they have the following:-

WK609-
B&W – B10610 (neg No), 3AEF ‘L’, 1985; B16344, Notts UAS, no date; B18797, 10AEF ’93’, 1993. Colour- R10127, 10AEF ’93’, 1993.

WK517-
B&W – B07399, 11AEF ’84’, 1977; B08178, 1FTS ‘U’, 1962; B13208, 11AEF ’84’, 1987. Colour – R00546, 1974; R01598, 11AEF ’84’, 1977; R06309, 11AEF ’84’, 1987; R09000, 11AEF ’84’, 1992.

WB697-
B&W – B11197, 3AEF ‘O’, 1986.

MAP have adverts in many aviation mags, or email them at [EMAIL]brianmap@btinternet.com[/EMAIL] , I presume they will have a website – try Google.

Geoff.

Originally posted by SteveYoung
You were there a few weeks before us then. I take it you had the tents on the playing field too? Vividly remember sneaking round the end of the BBMF hangar one night to watch a pair of F4’s scorch off on a night sortie, and sitting in PA474 while they ran up one of the Merlins, as a reward for passing someone a spanner. 🙂 Happy, happy days… 😀

We certainly chewed the same dirt Steve. We certainly had the tents on the sports field. and I also was sat in PA474 on engine runs too. I have still got my camp photo somewhere stood in front of PZ865 with me in coveralls while everyone else was in best blue as it was engine ran half an hour before the photo was taken and it overheated and spewed dayglow green glycol down the starboard side of the fuselage and I and a couple of others were tasked with getting it off – ok on the metal but the fabric proved to be a challenge. Got a 30 min flight in Devon VP981 with one of the Lanc pilots too, and was awarded a Merlin exhaust valve for our spanner passing:D 😀 We had Italian AF F104s to keep us awake at night as well as the F3s and F4s. we ended up playing ‘a/c recognition’ with the volume of the reheat.

Originally posted by topgun regect
I had an hour long sortie in WB697 in June 85 while on summer camp at Coningsby it was the same time they were doing a photo shoot with a MK 19 spit and an F3 parrafin heater and they wanted us out of the way. I remember we got buzzed by the spit on the way back to base over Woodhall Spa or whats left of it

You were there a few weeks before us then. I take it you had the tents on the playing field too? Vividly remember sneaking round the end of the BBMF hangar one night to watch a pair of F4’s scorch off on a night sortie, and sitting in PA474 while they ran up one of the Merlins, as a reward for passing someone a spanner. 🙂 Happy, happy days… 😀

Is that the one that landed in a cabbage patch?

Ploughed field actually !, it was with the London UAS, then briefly with 6 AEF

Is that the one that landed in a cabbage patch? there is a print hung up in the 10 AEF crew room of one with the caption ‘A lonely petunia in a cabbage patch’

Here’s the only one I know I flew in, WZ873 from White Waltham, I lost my ‘log book’ so have lost the ID’s of all the others I flew in from White Waltham, Abingdon, Lindholm, Thorny Island, Colltishall, valley, Hullavington, ’72-’79

Pic is fro the Daily Mirror.

Originally posted by robbelc
WP805 G-MAJR based Lee-on-Solent?
WB586 became LN-DHC
WZ847 G-CPMK based at Ashbourne?
WK642 G-BXDP based in Ireland
WP896 G-BWVY
WK624 G-BWHI based Duxford

Its nice to see that all the aircraft I flew in at woodvale are still in the UK and retain the Gypsy Major engine rather than a Lycoming bolted on in place, they look awful. Did you fly from Wood vale too robbelc?

Hello Ian, I can probably get a pic of WK609 this week sometime, she was being worked on at the tail end of last week but I should think it’ll venture out this week seeing as the weather should behave itself a bit better 😉 I’ll put it up on this thread hopefully then everyone who flew in her can get a copy.

Tom.

WP805 G-MAJR based Lee-on-Solent?
WB586 became LN-DHC
WZ847 G-CPMK based at Ashbourne?
WK642 G-BXDP based in Ireland
WP896 G-BWVY
WK624 G-BWHI based Duxford

I flew with 10 AEF out of RAF Woodvale

WP896
WK624
WB5?? (I think?)