CIA tactics in Yemen

RE: Good strike

Yes, whether it was a UAV or a guy walking up to them in the street and just opening up…

Your president has declared war but fighting terrorism is not a military thing…. ask the British in Northern Ireland… they don’t carpet bomb Ireland or Boston everytime there is a car bomb or shooting in NI… they know who the bad guys are too.

RE: Good strike

Apologies for going off topic for a while here guys.

SOC,

“Regarding Yugoslavia-the US is not to blame for any targeting errors. Each and every target had to be approved by a NATO committee. Fact of the matter is, we wanted to go after military targets but NATO veto’d them on a regular basis. NATO says put a bomb here, we put a bomb here. You want to blame someone when one of them is wrong, its nice and convenient for you to blame us since we have to provide the majority of the muscle to clean up your mess. Personally I didn’t support the operations when they came about. Europe should have been able to handle the situation on its own, or why waste millions on defense spending?”

Apart from the fact that the US flew all of it’s stealth planes (B2s and F-117s) on routes and to targets it chose there is also the small matter of who commanded the entire operation. Not to mention the fact that when specific missions were flown it was mostly by US pilots directed by US AWACS and controlled by either the USAF or the USN.

Anyway, back to Yemen,

The point you’re missing is that it was the CIA who decided if these gys were terrorists – they may well have got it wrong. If you were charged with a crime would you like your case to be decided by a jury or by the CIA?

Now, as I stated, chances are the guys were terrorists and the CIA killed six perfectly nasty characters but the argument isn’t just about this incident. Its about the precedent that was set here – the CIA shouldn’t be allowed to be judge, jurer and executioner of anybody around the world. How are you going to explain to the families, wives or children if they get it wrong next time?

“Sorry madam, your son was killed by our armed UAV last night even though he wasn’t a terrorist. This kind of operation has been done before and we got it right – I guess this time it was just a case of mistaken identity. I hope you’ll take some comfort from the fact that all military operations carry a certain risk of collateral damage.” – I’m sorry but that just doesn’t cut it.

RE: Good strike

I wonder, would there still be an objection if it was an F-15E that had blown up the car, with a pilot flying and a WSO directing the PGMs? I still fail to see the problem. If the terrorists are IDed, which they were, and followed by a UAV, which they were, and then targeted and destroyed, which they obviously were, where does the problem lie?

The CIA cannot act unilaterally. The operation was approved at a higher level.

Bottom line-we said we’d track down Al Qaeda anywhere in the world. Now people complain when we act on it?

Regarding Yugoslavia-the US is not to blame for any targeting errors. Each and every target had to be approved by a NATO committee. Fact of the matter is, we wanted to go after military targets but NATO veto’d them on a regular basis. NATO says put a bomb here, we put a bomb here. You want to blame someone when one of them is wrong, its nice and convenient for you to blame us since we have to provide the majority of the muscle to clean up your mess. Personally I didn’t support the operations when they came about. Europe should have been able to handle the situation on its own, or why waste millions on defense spending?

SOC

“Peace through kinetic solutions”

RE: Good strike

“I don’t see the bad guys whinning about it too much. “

They are hardly going to whine about the good guys using their tactics… what is disturbing is that the good guys don’t realise it themselves… perhaps we should just forget about good vs bad and just hand out nametags instead. 🙁

RE: Good strike

I don’t see the bad guys whinning about it too much. I wonder; UCAV operators don’t fly. So instead of a medal, do you just get a letter of appreciation?

RE: Good strike

>I have a lot of respect for you especially because of
>Yugoslavia. But I think you are wasting your tears on the
>wrong people. I’m not all broken up about those poor slobs
>in the car. They became a target when they got into that
>line of work. Too bad.

elp,

I agree. I’m not losing sleep over a few dead terrorists. However, you and I see this in different ways. You’re assuming that the six killed were in fact “in that line of work”. All I’m saying is that we can’t be sure that they were. If they weren’t (i.e. if they were innocent Yemenis) then we’d never know because the CIA isn’t above lying a bit in order to hide it’s mistakes. Chances are that they were six nasty bastards intent on killing people but letting the CIA decide who’s guilty and who’s innocent and then sentence them to death is a dangerous precedent to set.

RE: Good strike

“But I think you are wasting your tears on the wrong people. I’m not all broken up about those poor slobs in the car. They became a target when they got into that line of work. Too bad.”

I don’t mean to speak for Ink here but I don’t think the people who were killed is the problem, it is the process where people somewhere in the chain of command in the CIA made a decision that resulted in the deaths of others.
Where is the accountability, and justification in such a process.
Why bother having a justice system if it can be bypassed in this way. Is international law something that the US uses as a pretext to invade or impose crippling sanctions on other countries but is able to ignore with impunity?
If the answer is yes then don’t expect this war on terror (which just seems to be a war on al quada) to end anytime soon as such actions can only be supported by your most staunch allies. (ie Israel, Britian, Australia etc.)

Good strike

Ink,

I have a lot of respect for you especially because of Yugoslavia. But I think you are wasting your tears on the wrong people. I’m not all broken up about those poor slobs in the car. They became a target when they got into that line of work. Too bad.

RE: For those of you condoning the assasination

If the CIA blew up a car in the middle of the desert and upon examining the remains discovered that they’d just killed six innocent Yemeni men out on sunday drive do you think they’d own upto it? No way. Considering the lenghts the US govt. went to in order to cover up various convoy and bridge+train bombings in ’99 I would easily beleive that they’d fabricate some evidence in order to avoid an internationsal scandal.

The fact is, we’ll never know. The only evidence against these guys is from the CIA and they never get anything wrong do they? I always thought that in America you were innocent until proven guilty – in which case these guys were definitely innocent because they can never now be proven guilty.

“There is clearly a disconnect between the US and the rest of the world on this issue. As an American I can tell you there is real fear in this country that something like Sept11 can happen again”

Thats a lot of sh*te. In Yugoslavia we saw the US as our main threat and the very real fear of a massive bombing campaign against our country actually materialised itself. Does that give Yugoslavs the right to act like terrorists? No. Of course not.

The plain fact of the matter is that the US can do this if it wants, nobody can stop them and very few will try. That doesn’t make it right and it doesn’t mean we have to like it. Is it any wonder that the US should be a target for terrorism when it arbitrarily bombs people around the world?

RE: For those of you condemning the assasination

“Please…they’ll attack anybody. “

Have you been asleep?

Crashing 3-4 planes into 3-4 different targets at once requires planning and coordination. They didn’t just wake up one morning, get on an aircraft and hijack it then fly it into the nearest thing they saw.

“And all this time you talk about “try” to apprehend, how do you know they didn’t “try”? How do you know that the earlier deaths of Yemeni police wasn’t because of these guys”

I think 6 guys in a car out in a desert would have been the best place to “try” to capture them.

“Do you even understand the difference of a group of armed US military machines versus a UAV high up there. “

I understand the difference between a hellfire armed UAV controled by the CIA and a Hellfire armed helicopter controled by an Army Pilot.
Bush loves this going to war on terrorism rhetoric… it seems not worth fighting for except from 20,000ft.

“…and the home of the brave.”

“The Yemeni government is supportive of the US war on terror, but that doesn’t mean the US shouldn’t be sensitive about what the people thinks when they see US military in heavy gears there. “

Why bother changing US foreign policy now… I thought the whole idea of the war on terrorism was so that you could keep on doing what you are doing.

RE: For those of you condemning the assasination

Vortex.

“The Yemeni government is supportive of the US war on terror, but that doesn’t mean the US shouldn’t be sensitive about what the people thinks when they see US military in heavy gears there.”

Mmmm. U.S. Government, sensitive? How sensitive are they over the Iraq situation? Of course, I forgot, it wouldn’t apply there would it? You talk about sensitivity when a mad man wants to lead the world to war? (I am of course referring to George W Bush). I see a contradiction in terms here. While tracking terrorists in the Yemen you have to be sensitive about the type of operations you undertake, favouring the use of UAV’s rather than the carpet bombing policy undertaken by B-52’s in Afghanistan. End result? A reportedly clean operation which killed six terrorists at no cost to the US and equally importantly no cost to Yemeni civilians. Compare this with the kind of firepower and tactics you intend to use in Iraq. Do you really seriously expect people to believe that you intend to attack Iraq, remove Saddam and then fly back half way round the world without there being something in it for the US?

Regards,

kev35

RE: For those of you condemning the assasination

and you think that’s going to stop them just to support the New Zealand government. Please…they’ll attack anybody. That’s rather naive. And all this time you talk about “try” to apprehend, how do you know they didn’t “try”? How do you know that the earlier deaths of Yemeni police wasn’t because of these guys? Do you even understand the difference of a group of armed US military machines versus a UAV high up there. The Yemeni government is supportive of the US war on terror, but that doesn’t mean the US shouldn’t be sensitive about what the people thinks when they see US military in heavy gears there.

RE: For those of you condemning the assasination

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 22-11-02 AT 08:24 AM (GMT)]”Are you implying that we should stop the killing of soldiers on the battlefield, merely taking them prisioner and putting them on trial rather than fighting?”

No. Fighting in a war is not a war crime in itself… you would have nothing to try them for.

…of course your military seems to be experimenting with non lethal weapons (that sticky glue stuff springs to mind).
I kinda think that is a bit of a joke… contradiction in terms really.
Maybe that is for “wars” against people who are just not buying american products rather than enemies that actually strike back.

I’ll repeat again that these terrorists are just that terrorists. Halfwit Bush can call it a war all he likes but when he captures his enemies in this “WAR” he says it isn’t really a war at all and that the prisoners have no rights under the laws of war.
If that is the case then it must be a police action… but no, police are bound by law which means you can’t assassinate SUSPECTS with hellfire missiles from UAVs.

Perhaps in recognition of this problem he is emphasising the threat of iraq to hide it.

“Is it not possile that we knew who these people were, were monitoring them via UAVs, and waited until we had a good chance to take them out without leveling half a city to do it?”

Yes, it seems that the US has a new toy it can play with so instead of launching some cruise missiles from some ship out at sea you got really brave and used satellites and UAVs and didn’t kill nearly as many people as you usually do… bravo… well done.

“Precision warfare and assassination are two totally different concepts.”

Yes, I can see how the elimination of a point enemy target during peace time and during wartime could be considered different.

For example the elimination of Castro by a former girlfriend is totally different from the elimination of Hitler by use of a bomb.

There is no difference other than method.

“Well, one of them was an American. Article at this link.”

Ahmed Hijazi… yes obviously Irish American… perhaps he was a cop?
(BTW can’t wait for the inevidible civil court case… }> )

“Garry just wants Americans dead. “

Yes, that is why I am suggesting that the US should not invade Iraq, and why they should examine their foreign policy more carefully so that they don’t back the wrong side or that they don’t try to use bandages to cure cancer.

“The Yemenis police have lost quite a few lives trying to get these guys, and he wanted the Americans to go in there personally and arrest them. “

Yes, I am sure these 6 men alone in a car in the middle of the desert would waste 6 AH-64D apaches and troops in blackhawk helos… yes 6 x 30mm chainguns, Hellfire missiles up to the eyeballs, 70mm high velocity rockets and US troops with minimis, M16s, and M240s would have no chance against 6 guys in a car…

“What kind of idiot you think we are. “

Are there many choices… 🙂

“Last i recalled, any suspect that fires at police is automatically assumed armed and dangerous and ready to kill, therefore a legitimate target. “

I doubt 6 men in a car travelling across the desert would notice a prop driven UAV flying at 20,000ft let alone fire at it.

“Right, next time tell your own police to go negotiate somebody who just shot dead your partner the last time he/she tried.”

I think you need to re read my post. I basically said that they should have tried to capture the 6 men instead of hitting them with a hellfire missile. ie out in the middle of the desert road with no innocent bystanders they should have tried to capture them. If they had opened fire then of course those trying to capture them could and should fire back… I wasn’t suggesting that unarmed US military personel just walk up to the car and ask the occupants to put these nice silver bracelets on.
From what I have read two of the 6 dead were fairly important… one was a recruiter and the other the head of the Yemeni cell.
Of course there is no advantage to capturing such people… what useful information could they possibly have?
I mean on US TV your cop shows always involve your police shooting and killing all of their suspects before they can question them… that is how you solve crime… isn’t it?

“Just because you’re on the other side of Austrailia doesn’t mean you are different from Bali.”

Actually if you are really American, New Zealand is not on the other side of Australia… we are in the same Pacific ocean that half of your country is in.

If your comparison with Bali is meant to suggest we are targets too… that is possibly true. We have troops in Afghanistan as well, but I think an attack on New Zealand would be rather counter productive. We still have a Labour government but a terrorist attack here would give ammunition to the National party who want things (like American F-16s and nuclear ship visits) that would result in us getting more into bed with the US than we already are now.

Garry…

Garry just wants Americans dead. The Yemenis police have lost quite a few lives trying to get these guys, and he wanted the Americans to go in there personally and arrest them. What kind of idiot you think we are. Last i recalled, any suspect that fires at police is automatically assumed armed and dangerous and ready to kill, therefore a legitimate target. That’s very standard practice in civil cases, and you’re saying the military should do one better. Right, next time tell your own police to go negotiate somebody who just shot dead your partner the last time he/she tried. RIDCULOUS…but then again, it’s only Garry and the only reason he’s saying all this is because he think he’s comfortably shielded by thousands of miles of Pacific Ocean. Just because you’re on the other side of Austrailia doesn’t mean you are different from Bali.

RE: For those of you condemning the assasination

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 18-11-02 AT 05:23 AM (GMT)]Well, one of them was an American. Article at this link.

[link:www.cnn.com/2002/US/11/12/yemen.blast.us/index.html|CNN]

Although I don’t think it would have mattered had the strike planners known. Hang with the wrong crowd and you could end up being bumped off too.

RE: For those of you condemning the assasination

Are you implying that we should stop the killing of soldiers on the battlefield, merely taking them prisioner and putting them on trial rather than fighting?

Is it not possile that we knew who these people were, were monitoring them via UAVs, and waited until we had a good chance to take them out without leveling half a city to do it?

Precision warfare and assassination are two totally different concepts.

SOC

“Peace through kinetic solutions”

RE: For those of you condemning the assasination

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 17-11-02 AT 06:20 AM (GMT)]As far as I am concerned what was wrong with this operation was that the 6 who died, we are told, were guilty terrorists.
The people who told us this were the same people that killed them.
The Yemenese identified one of the bodies by a known mark on the bodies leg.
It is the US that has told us that this identifies the former leg owner as an evil terrorist.
People here have said this was a clean operation.
In other words they think that noone was killed that shouldn’t have been killed.
Even just assuming that is true, how long do you expect such luck to hold?
And when this luck fails do you think those innocent victims are just unlucky?
A snatch op is more complicated and expensive but if you get the wrong people you can always say sorry and let them go.
Saying whoops we killed your children/parents/friends but we were after a bad terrorist will mean little to those left behind.
But I am sure they will try to help you in future…

The Yemeni government allowed the use of UAVs.
Would they have not allowed the use of 2-3 AH-64Ds and a few Blackhawks to fly in guided by information from the UAV to apprehend these 6 so they could be taken alive, interrogated and then tried in a court of law?
Any resistance and I am sure even just one AH-64D could have “neutralised” one car.
If 6 were known to be in the car then 6 AH-64Ds could have hunted down each individual if they chose to flee the car… I mean we see cops do this in US cities all the time (obviously with FLIR but not with Apaches), in a desert it should have been even easier… just look at desert storm.

But it seems that the CIA didn’t want to capture these suspects.
They didn’t want justice… they simply wanted revenge.

Why?

Were they angry or impatient for results?

Or did they not have enough loop free evidence to get a conviction?

If they had been captured, tried, and convicted and then sentenced to death I’d have been happy to pull the switch or push the plunger on the needle myself.

If these 6 were American citizens I doubt they would have considered any method other than capture and try.
Why should it be any different for any other nationality?

RE: For those of you condemning the assasination

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 17-11-02 AT 04:42 AM (GMT)]Considering all the UAVs they have dumped in spectacular and unspectacular ways.. how do we know that the thing just didn’t fall out of the sky and land on those unfortunate slobs? 🙂

Theres a funny cartoon at the ops scheduling desk of the A-10 unit at Barkdale. It goes like this:

F-15 pilot: ” I shot down two MiGs. “

A-10 pilot: ” I destroyed a dozen tanks “

UAV operator: ” I’ve been shot down 5 times “

RE: For those of you condemning the assasination

Wasn’t that shoe-bomber guy from London?

SOC

“Peace through kinetic solutions”

RE: For those of you condemning the assasination

Garry,

“What has Iraq to do with terrorism?”

That’s the question I was asking in my own clumsy way.

“How many terrorist cells will be found in London… careful which bus you get on tomorrow Kev… }>”

I dare say there are more than a few people involved or linked with al-Qaeda living, plotting and fundraising here in the UK. And with an increasing Muslim population with a youth element who, although born in the UK feel no allegiance to it, it is only a matter of time before we suffer strikes from home based terrorists. Perhaps the only solution is so called surgical strikes or targeted operations but whoever mounts these operations has to do it with minimal risk to possibly innocent parties.

Regards,

kev35