Cockpit Clock for Miles Magister.

Ross, I was all set to chase the AP when Air Ministry rather timely , swooped in with its contents. Thank you both.
Back to the problem…
Air Ministry observes that the cockpit photo shows the clock as flush fitting, with red time of flight hands, no sweep second hand and no obvious winder, ie hidden behind the panel.
That description matches just about perfectly clocks 6A/1104 Luminous or 6A/1105 Non Luminous, these clocks are often shown in pre war drawings or photos of instrument panels
to be flush fitting, possibly using either the C type clamp or spacers. Picture 1 shows 1104/1105 and the same movement with an extension winder fitted , ie to reach up and under.
So it would appear that 6a/1104,6A/1105 are the clocks in question in that particular publication.
I have re checked AP 1275 1930 and AP 1275A 1938 and 6A/944 is not listed or mentioned as superseded .
This makes me speculate that it was a wartime stop gap measure using available clock movements…up market ones going by the specs!!
Photo 2 Shows The M1, 6A/ 1105 and 6A/581 a MkIII with Chronograph movement, to help understand the scale of the various contenders.
I have not seen a smaller chronograph movement in any other Air Ministry clocks…..yet.

Thanks to all for the help
Regards Mike

AP1585A, Vol. I, Second Edition, September 1938 gives only limited information about the Magister’s instruments.

The timepiece is simply described as “clock, non luminous”.

Squinting at the rather poor cockpit photo, it appears to resemble a standard inter-war Smiths 8-day clock, with time of flight indicator (red needle operated by central knob on the face of the glass) but not necessarily a seconds hand. It appears to have the usual Smiths civilian pattern mounting method from behind the panel, i.e. no flange. The glass of the dial appears to be flush with the front surface of the panel so presumably not a rim wound instrument: thus I assume it’s a stem wind, for access to which you have to reach “up and under” the panel. It looks to be the same size as their Oil and Fuel Pressure guages of the time and certainly not of the Service Mk. III pattern.

If I’m right, it would appear to be similar, if not identical to, Smiths clock type V.316 (late Av.687). This would give it a diameter of 2 3/16″.

I can’t account for the M.3 designation, though!

Maybe someone (Hendon?) has the Appendix A which might shed more light on it?

AP No. 1585A Vol I

First edition or second edition of the AP

Take your choice and have it copied by an independent researcher for you at lower cost than if the TNA does it.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C3306664

or

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C3306665

Ross

Reckless Rat…The AP idea has merit…if only a Magister AP still exists…anyone?

aircraftclocks..You bring up an interesting point.. its a chronograph…which by definition means its has a stop start function….it also means it would be Mk III size, which also
has the 12 hour stop start function.
So its not a small one but one of the largest !!! Why a Magister would need this high quality movements is an enigma!!! Let alone some where to mount it.
It becomes more confusing….
Kind Regards Mike

Mike
You are right in that the M.3 clock is only listed as being used in the Miles Magister and that it’s sec/ref. no is 6A/944. I have always thought it must be a Smiths product as they made the M.1 clock.
I have also been interested on getting my hands on one as well.

As to my web page, yes it has gone, my ISP sent an email one day saying that “soon” it would be no more. I focused on removing other material before my clock info and before you know it had gone. So even I do not have the most up to date version of it.

I use the wayback machine myself so will one day put it back up.

Anyway, I do have just a little more info on the M.3, this from an RAAF document, listing the specifications of clocks and watches in use at the time.

The types A.250 (6A/951) and the M.3 (6A/944) have the following statement: 12 hours with chronograph – (time of trip) in operation at normal temperature. and no other details about performance as all the other ones listed.

I know that the A.250A is a luminous watch from the early 1930’s and I suspect that the M.3 is of a similar vintage as well.

Thanks to the magic of the Wayback Machine, you can get to the pages Brian listed:-

https://web.archive.org/web/20130506112051/http://www.cpearce.orconhosting.net.nz/AM_REF_NUM_LISTING.html

And particularly this one, which lists the 6A/944 but sadly has no more information than you’ve already discovered.

https://web.archive.org/web/20130506110634/http://www.cpearce.orconhosting.net.nz/RAF.htm

I can’t find anything on the NAWCC website either. It’s possible it’s a more common movement rebadged by Smiths, but at this point you’d be guessing. Is there nothing in the APs for the Maggie?

Hi Brian,
Thanks for the response, I have attached photos of 2 Smiths clocks, I appears to be a civil one as it has no AM or 6A/ markings but it does have a model
number of M1 , this does not appear to a reference to being Mk.1…I could be wrong!!.but Smiths clocks have various letters on there faces ie M, N, etc.
This is why I suspect that M.4 could be A small (Mk 2 sized clock).
The other clock with the ratty face has no 6a/ number pressed into it,and Smith and Sons (MA) Ltd, written on the face, but it does have the A.M Kings crown on the back !
The A in the MA could be mistaken for a 4…but the movement does not have a sweep second hand, although it has a time of flight transfer on the glass.
Like you I believe that the larger clocks ,not only would have struggled to fit, but would have been a bit of horological overkill for an aircraft like the Magister .
A third option is, that it may have been allocated these mystery 6a/944, but in service none may have been fitted for whatever reason.
A case in point is that Tiger Moth aircraft are shown to be be possibly fitted with several clocks ie 6a/1002,6a/1104,6a/1105, but most wartime photos I have seen show no clock fitted.

Is it the clock that never was?

Kind Regards Mike

Mike sorry I have been away for the last few days.

I have Konrad Knirims book on British Military Timepieces and the 6a reference you have given does not match with any mk2 or 3 that he has listed.( But then neither does the Mk4 I have).

There was a very useful list on the internet – with all references by Chris Pearce in New Zealand but it seems to have fallen off the net.
http://cpearce.orconhosting.net.nz/AM_REF_NUM_LISTING.html

Although looking at the Magister instrument panel I am not sure where you could fit a mk3 in one of these. It is a big clock.
http://kalkin.foros.ws/t3025/miles-magister-172/