Cockpits for sale

An interesting aside to the V-Force cockpit sale is the acquisition of the ‘Jersey’ Heron for £1 – as first spotted on UKAR!

https://www.bailiwickexpress.com/jsy/news/historic-plane-be-saved-1-bid…

They didn’t ask me a a; but people will pay a reasonable / realistic price for something that they wish to acquire.

From previous dealings with V-Force cockpit sellers: 2003 – Valiant; 2013 – Victor; 2014 – Victor; they all expect a far higher price than most buyers are prepared to pay. I have figures (offer & valuation) for each of those possible ‘deals’ but I am not willing to post them on a public forum.

From communications that I have seen and the auction information online, this latest batch of cockpits is no different; my favourite recent description of them was “Museum ready!” 

It sounds as if the auction house might have done well to ask Twin Otter for valuations of the cockpit sections. Judging by what I’ve read here, he might have been able to offer the best informed opinion as to their value!

Twin Otter, yes we are on the same page and I’m waiting to be told by my chauffeur if I’m coming to Newark and for how long. If push comes to shove I’ll have to pay a short visit by Train and cycle.

avion ancien. Auctioneers have an idea of value where there is an established market for items, things like cars, Jewellery and art. There is no established market for large lumps of airframe apart from possibly ebay and that would suggest much lower values. The auctioneer almost certainly saw lots of publicity being generated by the sale. I’m told that the Celebrity auctioneer actually works for the firm so I’m not sure that was any additional cost in that respect.

Hi BH, I’ve just re-read your reply and I think that we’re actually on the same page – sorry that I cannot edit my previous post!!

Hi there BH – I base my comments on a communication with the seller last autumn and previous experience with prices requested on a different Valiant cockpit (17 plus years ago) and a different Victor cockpit (8 years ago). 

Again good luck to him if they sell!

Hope to see you soon at Newark!!

Assuming that what you say is correct, BH, why would anyone want to use an auctioneer who doesn’t have any idea of the value of the items he/she has been instructed to sell and who simply accepts the values which the vendor attributes to them? If the only reason is that there are no fees payable to such an auctioneer on an unsold lot, to me that seems perverse reasoning – if the seller genuinely wants to sell the items. It also seems to make no commercial sense vis à vis the auctioneer, unless he/she perceives that having the lots on his/her books will attract desired publicity even if they do not sell.  

Twin Otter is inaccurate when he says from day one last year, the seller has had a wiildly optimistic view of the values of the sale items for a number of years. Otherwise he is totally accuarate.

I don’t suppose the auctioneer had any idea of the values and accepted the seller’s figures. The seller chose well as the auctioneers is the only one I know of that doesn’t charge based on the reserve for unssold lots.

All the unsold items are going on a timed auction from tomorrow, see what happens then.

I appreciate all the points that you make aa, but I remain unmoved in my original observation – good luck to the seller if he sells at those prices; lots of museums / owners would have to revise their valuations significantly for insurance purposes!

I believe the reason they have not sold is the high valuation expectation of the seller, which right from day one last summer have IMHO been rather inflated!

If what the seller believes his/her item to be worth is significantly in excess of the valuation that the auctioneer places on it, that should not be a problem unless the seller’s expectation reflects in any fixed reserve which he/she requires to be placed on the lot. I would have thought that, in such circumstances, any auctioneer worth his/her salt would decline the business. Who wants to put time, effort and money into marketing a lot which is unlikely to find a buyer because because the seller requires an unrealistically high reserve to be placed on it? Conversely, if no or a realistic reserve is placed on the lot, the seller should discover the value that the market places on it and whether that differs significantly from his/her own expectation. I suppose that much depends on how keen the seller is to sell!

Big costs in transporting after the 40% on the hammer, although most auction houses take between 15% and 24% on the hammer now excluding VAT but on cars its normally around 10% plus VAT

The auction house will have sellers / buyer fees this again will make anywhere between 25% and 45% from the vendor and the vendee in total, not bad a hammer of £100 and you get 55 quid back !!

To be honest I believe the reason they have not sold is the high valuation expectation of the seller, which right from day one last summer have IMHO been rather inflated!

Having regard to Bruce’s remarks regarding opening bids and estimates, could this have something to do with the sellers using a celebrity auctioneer rather than one of the auction houses which specialise in aeronautica and have a track record for selling such items? Maybe from the latter one might see what we might view as more realistic estimates and opening bid thresholds? 

As to buyers having to pay nearly 40% of the hammer price in commission, charges and tax, that appears to vary depending on the lot. If one looks at lot 1 (all the cockpits together), the text says the buyer’s premium is 15% plus VAT but if you click on the ‘additional fees’ icon, that says that commission (including buyer’s premium and online commission) is 38.4% including VAT/sales tax. However if you click on the same icon for lots 2-5, that says that the commission for each lot is 26.4% including VAT/sales tax. Whatever might be the case, charging fees at such a level must, in my opinion, be a disincentive to potential bidders or may produce deflated bids that reflect the possibility that bidders bid by reference to the gross cost to them of their potential purchase. Maybe this is why the cockpits did not sell first time around – and may not be appreciably more successful the present time around?

To say the least! All hammer prices are +38.4% including buyers premium and VAT. Most of the opening bids are way high, let alone the estimates!

Bruce

Showing for updated auction finishing on 16th March – prices still interesting…

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/hansons/catalogue…

Although the hammer prices were quite high, many of the lots in the auction didnt sell – in fact very little sold overall – so there were some very high expectations, so say the least!

Apparently, they are all coming back to the saleroom in due course – hopefully the estimates will have been revised down somewhat.

Bruce

From what I can see all four cockpits plus several other items have been passed and not sold.

Just watching this live. Some things are going for mad prices. Ejection seats, unrestored, incomplete, went for £3,000 – £4,000. Not sure what the V Bomber cockpits went for. I logged on late. Some comments implied that not all of them sold. The Canberra one, WJ731, was later in the auction and didn’t sell at £5,500, that works out at about £7,650 with VAT and fees.

Victor/Vulcan rear seats went for £1,100 to £1,600. A bit annoying when I wanted to buy one that was going for £50 at the Yeovilton Aerojumble in the mid 80’s. My dad wouldn’t let me buy it as it wouldn’t fit in his Ford Orion to get it home and he know my mum would do her nut even if it did. 

It seems the cost of a cockpit section is now mainly the value of the seats.

Previously missed this FLY.BUY 

Some nice items for the cold War collector.

More

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/192921809532?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=…