Cold War intercepts

You are the Master Controller at the SOC,

You are Joan Hopkins and I claim my £5! 😉

May I suggest that you take a look here. After entering the site, select “Operations”, then “Radio Proving Flights” and afterwards a “Spec Operator Remembers”

exmpa

Fascinating website thank you.

But it still leaves me wondering ‘what would happen if’ a soviet (russian) aircraft entered british airspace or territorial waters and, after an interception had taken place by RAF fighters, refused to turn back or change course..
Would the British act in the same way as the Russians?

Back in the 60’s my dad took part in over 200 RDAF intercept missions in the Baltic sea. Never once was he, or his colleague, close to using force.

Ok, he flew RF84F which might not be the snappiest aircraft, but they were nearly always escorted by proper intercepters.

RDAF flew a large amount of intercept missions in the Baltic and no aircraft was ever lost, or even in actual danger. The idea was more political than military and some intercepts were quite cordial.

Without trying to analyse the political situation in the 60’s, my perception is, that no one really wanted to start anything. It was all about showing them that we knew they were there and vice versa.

It must not be confused with the BoB type scramble and intercept, as there was no actual danger (well, at least the pilots didn’t expect danger). The Soviets wanted to see how fast RDAF could get from A to B, and we needed to practise exactly that. I’m sure we flew into their airspace too, but thats not widely talked about (at least on “our side”).

As answer to the original question “exactly when would an RAF aircraft actually fire on these”, I can only use the RDAF approach which was “NEVER”.

Naturally there must be a slight window for actual hostility, but that would only be if war was deemed to be imminent. I don’t know who would make that call.

I assume the rest of NATO followed more or less the same rules.

This thread brings to mind the time when a Bear arrived for an airshow in the UK some few years back, great play was made of the escort of the RAF fighters who met and escorted the aircraft to the display base : when interviewed by the usual clueless tv pundit and asked some inane question as to how he found us, the Russian pilot intimated casually (and probably with a just a hint of surprise at the enquiry, that they had been coming over (to Britain) for years. (presumably he had little need of a Michelin map) 😉

Wyvernfan,

Unfortunately the world is a rather messy place and things are rarely clearcut. “Self defence authorised in response to hostile intent” might mean one thing in peacetime but another in time of tension. It was because of the checks and balances that there were relatively few incidents.

May I suggest that you take a look here. After entering the site, select “Operations”, then “Radio Proving Flights” and afterwards a “Spec Operator Remembers”

I am of course unable to vouch for its accuracy but it does have a ring of authenticity, don’t you think?

exmpa

No i was not responding directly to you.. just stating a confused interest into what seems an unclear policy.

First of all, the issue is not airspace, but territorial waters.

exmpa

Be interesting to know the position of the British aircraft before they were shot down or fired upon by the Russians..

Wyvernfan

I wrote:

So, a single turboprop elint aircraft might even get away with a slight encroachment on territorial waters in peacetime,

and you wrote (I presume in response):

So if Russian military aircraft are allowed to enter British airspace without the threat of being shot down

First of all, the issue is not airspace, but territorial waters. During the Cold War, NATO aircraft regularly operated in Soviet airspace but remained over international waters. It would appear that this practiced by the Russians and for all I know by the RAF as well.

Consider the following situation. An intruder aircraft; already identified as an intelligence collector; is flying one mile outside territorial waters parallel to the boundary. Interceptor aircraft have been shadowing it for 2 hours observing standard separation distances. The intruder has been flying a racetrack pattern with turns being made away from the coast. As the intruder reaches a turning point it commences a turn towards the territorial boundary that takes it nearly 1 mile inside the limit. The aircraft continues to turn through 270 degrees and takes up a new track directly away from the UK coast. The interceptor aircraft close on the intruder that is now in international waters, 5 miles outside territorial waters and heading directly away. You are the Master Controller at the SOC, what are your actions?

It is not a case of Russians being allowed to penetrate or infringe UK territorial waters without sanction, but the response to situation must be proportionate. In the past, both sides had a least a tacit understanding of the limits in force and attempted to avoid confrontation, although this was not always the policy. Where the “system” broke down; as in the case of the Korean 747 or the USN EP3 and the Chinese; this had more to do with local failure rather than policy.

exmpa

It is an interesting question, especially when you consider all the allied aircraft (ELINT mainly) that have been ‘downed’ in Soviet airspace, especially in the early Cold War period. I have seen a list of crews lost over the years and it is quite staggaring.
Does that mean we have excercised more restraint, or just completely different scenerios and rules of engagement?

So if Russian military aircraft are allowed to enter British airspace without the threat of being shot down, what is the point of the intercept in the first place.. apart from showing that we are alert and ‘on the ball’.?!
I always assumed that any non friendly aircraft were expected to comply and turn around as soon as an intercept had taken place or as they entered British skies.. or are they free to roam at will without the fear of actual engagement.?:confused:

In view of the fact that Russian military aircraft still enter UK airspace unannounced and are regularly intercepted by RAF aircraft we can reasonably assume that similar Rules of Engagement (RoE) are still in force. So, I don’t think that you can really expect a definitive answer to your question.

The RoE are a political tool and their application will depend on many factors, not least whether the government is willing to escalate what might be an already tense situation. So, a single turboprop elint aircraft might even get away with a slight encroachment on territorial waters in peacetime, with the only response being a stiffly worded complaint from the Foreign Office. If the alert state was raised then possibly more positive action would be authorised.

It might be thought that it would be reasonable to assume that, even in peacetime, intercepting aircraft would be automatically permitted to open fire in self defence, but even this scenario is fraught with danger. Consider the case where a pair intercept a Bear shortly after it has turned northwards, away from the UK. The Bear opens fire and hits the lead aircraft as it closes, forcing the crew to eject. The No2 is outside the engagement range (as he should be). Does he now open fire on the Bear? Although the other aircraft has committed a hostile act, does it represent a threat and is the No2 acting in self defence?

Although there exist contingency plans and RoE for varying situations they are all framed to be applied against a wider background. The single aircraft with hostile intent case is unlikely and under conditions that prevailed in the 1960-1990 period. Today of course it could be different.

exmpa