Colgan Q400 loses tire in BUF (w/ video)

There have been problems with airlines (not just regionals) using non-certified/outsourced maintenance. It’s been a while since I remember that being reported and I believe it involved foreign maintenance stations being used by US carriers. It might have been American that got in trouble or was being investigated.

Fortunately I work for a company that has outstanding maintenance and has a top training department. Others who have come to us from other carriers have shared horror stories in the differences between what we consider normal which is seen by others has unheard of. To be fair though it did take our company losing a EMB-120 in flight due to the tail separating because of lax mx in the 90’s to straighten everything out.

I’m really curious what the discussion of fatigue will generate. The rules/law that we have now do nothing to insure a rested crew. Sure a crew can decline a flight if they are fatigued but some companies put inappropriate pressure against crews who do not to mention that you need to realize that you are fatigued in the first place in order to pull yourself off a trip. They say that by the time you “feel” fatigued is too late, you’ve been fatigued with degraded senses for hours before.

Pilot groups have been fighting for more appropriate rules within their own companies for a long time. Unfortunately that unless every company has similar rules requiring more rest at one company can put them at a disadvantage while they try to compete with others. If your crews get 10 hours of rest while everyone else is doing 8 hours your competition will be off the gate 2 hours before you taking your business. Rule changes have to be made at the Federal level to insure some rouge outfit doesn’t keep their crews at minimum rest to beat out the competition.

In addition to that a reduction in available flight hours due to improved rest will impact the pay of the pilots because they are paid per hour flown. That magnifies another problem of incredibly low pay for regional pilots. The FO in the doomed Q400 commuted across the country to EWR. Her sub-$20,000 pay wouldn’t buy her a parking spot in the NYC area which forces pilots to live well outside of their base of employment. Now if rest rules lowered the pay further what will the effect be? I could go on but you get my drift.

I think a better way to approach it is to stick to the facts. Oversimplifying that a wheel falling off is a non-event or a matter of no concern is stupid. Colgan is very lucky that it was only 1 wheel and didn’t damage the aircraft as it departed the axle.

kevinwm. Yes, a lot of scrutiny is being put towards the regionals since the Colgan crash in February. I think it’s long over due and hope some real changes come from this to improve safety for everyone. Pilot Fatigue is becoming a focus which every pilot can attest there being a need to revamp the rules by which we operate.

WD, the horror stories that I have heard shocked me , Im in a very heavly regulated Industry and well paid for the hours I do , I would be certain that If i was to do the things talked about then I would writting this from a we cosy cell
If Whats been going on in the Regionals if I Im led to belive is true , Im surprised that there hasnt been More Incidents that what have occured
One Intresting story that I have heard about and may be you might have as well, a Major US Carrier was aloud by the FAA to use no certified Engineers to service and repair aircraft
Now If this carrier was doing this then what have the regionals been getting away with , with consent of the FAA

Well it does take a chain of events to cause an accident but a blown tire did bring down the Concorde.

The wheel, or rather the tyre was indeed the part that failed but it wasn’t a ‘wheel failure’ that directly caused it. That was my point.

Anyway, I reckon we’ve pretty much hit a brick wall with this so shall we leave it at that? 🙂

Paul

What I’m saying is airlines would be extremely stupid if they stated the facts in the clear cut manner in which you seem to suggest.

Actually I find in most cases that the airlines do exactly that and only that. Looking at Colgan’s recent crash in BUF the company was very careful about only stating facts and not giving emotional statements. The safest recourse is to only state the facts and not speculate or draw early conclusions about how safe or unsafe a situation is/was. For a Colgan rep. to state “it’s no big deal…” the day following the incident is one of the dumbest things I’ve heard.

Incidentally, the Concorde accident was not caused directly by a wheel failure, as you seem to imply.

Well it does take a chain of events to cause an accident but a blown tire did bring down the Concorde.

According to the official investigation conducted by the French accident investigation bureau (BEA), the crash was caused by a titanium strip, part of a thrust reverser, that fell from a Continental Airlines DC-10 that had taken off about four minutes earlier. This metal fragment punctured a tyre on the left main wheel bogie. The tyre exploded, and a piece of rubber hit the fuel tank and broke an electrical cable. The impact caused a hydrodynamic shockwave that fractured the fuel tank some distance from the point of impact. This caused a major fuel leak from the tank, which then ignited due to severed electrical wires which were sparking……

The tire caused the damage to the aircraft from which it was crippled. The metal on the runway caused the tire to fail but didn’t directly bring down the aircraft. In the case of Colgan the tire failed due to some sort of mechanical failure (human installation error or actual metal failure) which lead to the tire departing the aircraft. Yes the incident ended there but what if this was on takeoff like the Concorde and the departed tire struck the aircraft?

And saying something to this extreme is just as stupid. Blurting out that folks are lucky to not have died or that despite the incident it was no big deal are equally dumb. Wheel failures have caused accidents and dismissing one on your own airline is amazingly stupid.

“Don’t worry folks, we just lost a tire, it’s no big deal….”

I wasn’t saying airlines should say something as extreme as that. What I’m saying is airlines would be extremely stupid if they stated the facts in the clear cut manner in which you seem to suggest. You may appreciate it, but they would be ripped apart by the public. I’m not sure what your problem with this particular airline is (and you very clearly have one), but I really can’t see any other airline reacting any differently in the public eye.

Incidentally, the Concorde accident was not caused directly by a wheel failure, as you seem to imply.

Paul

‘A wheel fell off one of our aircraft on landing. It shouldn’t have and it could have caused a serious accident and killed everybody’.

And saying something to this extreme is just as stupid. Blurting out that folks are lucky to not have died or that despite the incident it was no big deal are equally dumb. Wheel failures have caused accidents and dismissing one on your own airline is amazingly stupid.

“Don’t worry folks, we just lost a tire, it’s no big deal….”

Who the hell hired that guy narrating the video? Bloody awful…

I think a better way to approach it is to stick to the facts.

‘A wheel fell off one of our aircraft on landing. It shouldn’t have and it could have caused a serious accident and killed everybody’.

Can you really see any airline with a shred of sense saying that? To do so would not only be commercial suicide for the airline but it wouldn’t do the reputation of the aircraft involved any good whatsoever, which could potentially damage other operators of that type. You only have to listen to the idiot in the news clip referring to other completely unconnected incidents involving the Q-400; I’m sure there will now be people out there who consider the Q-400 to be an unsafe aircraft, but that isn’t their fault. It’s extreme, but those people will be there because they don’t know any better than the dross they’re spoon-fed by the remarkably ignorant media. The public don’t know enough about aviation to know the aircraft type probably isn’t at fault.

Whether you think they should stick to the facts or not, they’re not going to blurt things out quite so blunty and I agree with them.

Anyway, we’re kind of going round in circles with this so let’s agree to disagree, or continue via PM. 🙂

Paul

Maybe, but then you get people accusing the airline of not being upfront and hiding the truth. Saying nothing leaves everything open to interpretation by the media and the public, which can do far more damage than saying it wasn’t a big deal. I really can’t criticise them for saying what they did and I can’t imagine many other airlines would act differently.

Paul

I think a better way to approach it is to stick to the facts. Oversimplifying that a wheel falling off is a non-event or a matter of no concern is stupid. Colgan is very lucky that it was only 1 wheel and didn’t damage the aircraft as it departed the axle.

kevinwm. Yes, a lot of scrutiny is being put towards the regionals since the Colgan crash in February. I think it’s long over due and hope some real changes come from this to improve safety for everyone. Pilot Fatigue is becoming a focus which every pilot can attest there being a need to revamp the rules by which we operate.

I’m no expert, but having seen the video clip a few times it strikes me that this latest incident appears (And I stress ‘appears’) to be a maintenance issue rather than a part/s failure.

A probable Main Bearing Collapse

I think that only option here that could be ruled out is Pilot Fault,
I have heard that there is a major investigation into Regional airlines ongoing in the States due to the amount of Mishaps that have occured over the last Few Years

What about “We are about to land. Please turn off all electronic equipments” ???

I’m no expert, but having seen the video clip a few times it strikes me that this latest incident appears (And I stress ‘appears’) to be a maintenance issue rather than a part/s failure.

Yeah I thought the same but I tend not to say too much as I dont like throwing around guesses as it generally isnt respected in aviation but I must addmit I did think along a similar line to you on the possible cause.

I’m no expert, but having seen the video clip a few times it strikes me that this latest incident appears (And I stress ‘appears’) to be a maintenance issue rather than a part/s failure.

Thats an interesting video. The tyre came off quite easily.

I agree that airline spokesmen need to steer clear of painting a doomful picture but in cases like this I’ve always thought it to be better to say nothing (or very little) rather than say something was no big deal.

Maybe, but then you get people accusing the airline of not being upfront and hiding the truth. Saying nothing leaves everything open to interpretation by the media and the public, which can do far more damage than saying it wasn’t a big deal. I really can’t criticise them for saying what they did and I can’t imagine many other airlines would act differently.

Paul

I agree that airline spokesmen need to steer clear of painting a doomful picture but in cases like this I’ve always thought it to be better to say nothing (or very little) rather than say something was no big deal. “We had an incident on our flight to BUF, we’re launching an investigation into the cause of the tire loss, we’ll be upfront with what we discover and apologize for any concern it caused our passengers.” Just don’t say “it’s no big deal”.

A tire rolls off the axle on landing and it’s no big deal?

Let’s be honest about this, no airline in the world will say ‘yes, we had a serious mishap that was our fault and could have killed everyone’, are they? Of course they’re going to say it was no big deal and to say anything else would be the biggest shooting of one’s own foot imaginable from a PR point of view. I don’t know what caused this rather odd incident to happen but I don’t really think what Colgan have said is too far removed from what any other operator would say in similar circumstances. That said, them blaming the pilots openly doesn’t sound too good, if indeed that’s the case!

Something that annoys me is the way that news report has a go at the Q-400 in general. Then again, they do refer to it as a “jet”. Media idiots.

Paul