Collins Class and Oyashio size comparison.

sorry i wasn’t sure i think i misunderstooded the defrences of ssk i thought there was a bigger simalarity between them both as the are larger.

I am not sure to understand what you wrote.
Oyashio and -471 have not “teardrop” shape, but “leaf” hull shape.

The X-type rudder arrangement is rather for coastal use (i.e. posing).
Something a nuke can’t do.

Yes, they are intended for long-range missions, indeed, hence they are big and have a huge reserve of energy. But they are not intended to make the job of a nuke.

Finally, the T-1400 (aka Victoria/Upholder) is not in the same category, but in the Kilo/S-80/Walrus class (2,000t).

it that the desine is similar to the comterpary nuke style sub the teardrope desine of the hull. the open water comment is about that they don’t seemed to desined for littorals areas as they have been adopted by contries with large costines with big ocenes.

i hope this clears this up

I am not sure to understand the point at comparing them.
Different needs, different missions, different platforms.

And I don’t understand the “they all have nuke style hulls and are all ment for open water” point either.

For the exercice point, yes they did.

Upholder/Victoria, although beeing a good class basically, is battered with eternal problems and may even see their numbers fall in the next few years.

so which is the better sub in open water Victoria [ex Upholder] vs Collins class vs Oyshio class. as they all have nuke style hulls and are all ment for open water how they compare
with each oter directly.
will they ever take part in a joint exersise?
and can someone plesese lock my thread sinces it the same as this one

Im sure I have a brochure somewhere for the AIP system being fitted to german subs. I will dig it out and see if it is scanable on Monday

Fuel-cell technology is not that mature yet.
And the price is really a matter (even for the SDF).

You allways read on different forums that fuelcells is best AIP right now. Much more expensive then Stirling, but slightly better. Therefor I was kind of confused that Japan decided to go with stirling AIP (specially since money is´nt really a matter for the japanese navy), and now reading that Australia has chosen stirling. Any thoughts about that (fuelcells vs stirling)?

Frac: mate the Sterling system is back at ASC and roumor has it that now that Collins is back there it is going to be fitted which to me makesn sence since it is expected to be out of fleet commission for 2 yerars, six moths having already passed.

We were always taught back in the navy that the Sub service forms bot the first tier and the third tier in the line of defence, they can strike and they can defend.

Well, the problem of the Upholder class (T-2400) was that they were never mothbolled.
Just kept moored at pier without any maintenance at all.
Now, the Canadians would have take two instead of 12 years to decide, they would heve had better boats today.
Again, for the price…

Now, to keep both nuke and D-E boats in the same navy is very costly and a logistics’ nightmare. After the Cold War, it was very difficult to justify.

For the AIP on the Collins, Australian MoD did buy one Stirling engine from Sueden, but AFAIK, it is still at pier and idle.
The fact was that after trials of the first boats, it was “cancelled” because they noticed they can recharge the whole battery with one hour a day of schnorkeling.

The Canadians don’t even use the MK-48 ADCAP for that matter.

There were issues with taking the Upholder class out of mothballs especially with the last to be refited HMS Upholder/Chicoutimi, she had been canabalised to get the other boats up and running.

Everytime I get frustrated about the situation of funding and equipment with the Royal Navy I always remind myself that its nothing in comparison to the woes of the Canadian naval section.

Im not sure the upholders ever did get fitted for Spearfish, the Mk 24 Tigerfish and possibly the MK 8 along with the Harpoon would of been a more likely fit.

I know there were further problems when they were handed over to Canada but much of that was down to mothballing them for so long

Actually it was the Canadian’s wanting to change the main weapons fit, the Upholders were fantastic boats and they fired the Spearfish. The Canadians had the Mk-48 left over from their old O-boats and they wanted to use these on the Upholders and this is where it all fell apart.

Fed:The officers are bread to believe in their equipment and should anything bad go wrong with them they will never tell either the lower ranks or the public, that is a rule. The lower ranks will always complain about the equipment and or the conditions, it’s general nature.

All too true Ja W the amount of docu’s I have seen over the years with that being the case.

Thinking about Francs comment I have to agree that is one of the advantages of Nuke boats no lack of power (in theory). I do believe that my own navy should never got rid of the Upholder class, once the bugs had been ironed out it was a handy part of the fleet (I know there were further problems when they were handed over to Canada but much of that was down to mothballing them for so long).

Franc: Thanks for the addition mate, but the Sterling AIP is still on the books, where you got the info you wrote I’d be very interested in hearing as it goes against what I have seen on the DMO site. Thanks also for the info on the deck layout of the Japanese sub, I have never been on one so I can’t say (never seen one either, they would have to be the most ellusive military vessels in the world).

Fed:The officers are bread to believe in their equipment and should anything bad go wrong with them they will never tell either the lower ranks or the public, that is a rule. The lower ranks will always complain about the equipment and or the conditions, it’s general nature.

… with the interoduction of the Sterling AIP system our Collins are to gain extra length, the only question is when is this going to happen? …

I was talking with ppl from ADI involved on the submarine program, and it was clearly stated by the RAN and procurement, that the AIP will not be fit in the current Collins (T-471) class.
Stirling Oyashio will be launched next year.

Also the much awaited TLAM capability will add further length to these boats but I think this dream has slipped back into the realms of fantasy.

Indeed.

At the times of Construction our subs were thwe biggest but the Japanese have upped the stakes again but then again they are very capable builders of these vessels, we are not, they have been building these boats for a very long time, the Collins are our first.

Well, 471 Collins was launched in Aug. 1993 .
SS 590 Oyashio was launched in Oct. 1996.

… and fittout of a new battle management system and fire control computer (actually the BQY-1 as fitted to the USS Seawolf class). These systems will make these vessels the most capable Diesel electric subs in the world.

I will not praise here how a mistake it is to integrate the CCS MK2 into an SSK.
Even you have the biggest elec power available inside, you are not going to have the infinite power like an SSN.
We will see that on operations.

The fact that the Japanese have a crew of 70 in their subs and we have a crew of just under 60 speaks volumes of the amount of automation we have packed into these subs.IIRC the Japanese subs are only one deck with a sub deck, our Collins are two decks with a sub deck (a sub deck is a half deck below the floor usually containing a storage area for food and supplies, it has the cold storage and freezer rooms as well. Our Subs also have a mixed crew, the Japanese do not this has also nessitated the sleeping arangements on the collins to reflect a mixed gender, the female crew sleep forward on 01 deck (above the forward torpedo tubes), while the males sleep aft on 02 deck, just forward of the engine room. As always the4 officers get their quaters amid ship on 01 deck.

Crew number is mainly a cultural thing.
US has more crew then russians.
And it was in the original specification to have a reduced crew on the 471s.
Oyashio has a 3-full-deck layer.

If it came down to a war, I’d be backing the Japanese navy since not only do they know more about sub warfare but they know their ships very well.

They have been operating submarines for more then 100 years, and building them since 1907.

Well I hope I haven’t disappointed anyone.

Don’t think you did.

Don’t worry Ja W considering there is quite a time difference between the UK and Australia I wasn’t expecting an instant reply. :p

Considering you asked for more Aus related stuff recently I thought you might like a thread started by one of us Euro centric types.

An interesting program I must admit, whilst the officers were all being diplomatic about the qualities of the Collins class I got the impression that the lower ranks were less impressed about the serviceability of certain equipment especially the Diesels (reminds me of the issues that the RN had with the Upholder class). I get the impression that RAN uses its subs more like blue water nuclear hunter killer types, in that respect AIP would seem to be an excellent upgrade.

The female crew issue is interesting as the RN’s sub service has managed to avoid mixed crewing up till now. With navies like the RAN bringing in mixed crews with smaller diesel types I think it is going to be harder for the RN’s silent service to avoid the change or put forward a reasonable excuse. I wouldn’t be surprised if the RN experiments with this major crewing change over the next five years.

Hi Fed, thanks for thinking of me mate I am honoured and am sorry it took me so long to reply, as pointed out above the Japanese vessels are longer though with the interoduction of the Sterling AIP system our Collins are to gain extra length, the only question is when is this going to happen? Also the much awaited TLAM capability will add further length to these boats but I think this dream has slipped back into the realms of fantasy. At the times of Construction our subs were thwe biggest but the Japanese have upped the stakes again but then again they are very capable builders of these vessels, we are not, they have been building these boats for a very long time, the Collins are our first.

I know the doco you are talking about I saw it being made and remember its release here in Australia. Rankin hadn’t gone back to receive the upgrades critical to the project, this was also before Rankin had the seal around the shaft break flooding the engine room, this caused the whole fleet to be placed on stand-by in order to assertain what measures needed to be taken to correct the fault.

These days our fleet of subs enjoy a realativly good life, most are operational in the fleet with HMAS Collins back at ASC undergoing refit to correct problems and fittout of a new battle management system and fire control computer (actually the BQY-1 as fitted to the USS Seawolf class). These systems will make these vessels the most capable Diesel electric subs in the world.

The fact that the Japanese have a crew of 70 in their subs and we have a crew of just under 60 speaks volumes of the amount of automation we have packed into these subs.IIRC the Japanese subs are only one deck with a sub deck, our Collins are two decks with a sub deck (a sub deck is a half deck below the floor usually containing a storage area for food and supplies, it has the cold storage and freezer rooms as well. Our Subs also have a mixed crew, the Japanese do not this has also nessitated the sleeping arangements on the collins to reflect a mixed gender, the female crew sleep forward on 01 deck (above the forward torpedo tubes), while the males sleep aft on 02 deck, just forward of the engine room. As always the4 officers get their quaters amid ship on 01 deck.

If it came down to a war, I’d be backing the Japanese navy since not only do they know more about sub warfare but they know their ships very well.

Well I hope I haven’t disappointed anyone.

Did some checking the series was called Submariners and it was about HMAS Rankin, its been on Sky Mix for the last couple of months during the afternoon.

For those who are interested I have also found that they have released it on DVD:

http://cgi.ebay.ie/Submariners-The-Complete-Series-2-Disc-Set-B-New_W0QQitemZ9128880321QQcategoryZ42843QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

When was it on Sky? I missed it – if recent, it may be repeated soon (I hope).

was this the ‘beneath southern seas’ doco??

I don’t remember the program name but in it the sub was going to Pearl Harbour for war games against the Americans. Also some woman were being added to the crew which didn’t go down well with all of the men.