Complete and utter morons!

RE: Not in the spirit of FlyPast

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 12-11-02 AT 01:48 PM (GMT)]David Burke

Well put,I get a number of people who like to ridicule me and others like me for jotting down numbers, but as you say , it’s what we like to do, wouldnt it be a boring world if nobody had a hobby

I’m glad the spotters were found innocent, perhaps they’ll know better next time than to go around taking photos of military aircraft, there are those that get a teeny bit touchy about it, especially anywhere in the eastern Meditteranean

I also like old aircraft and museums and airshows, and reading up on the movements of commercial aircraft etc, and, well, almost anything to do with aviation.

We’re not all just number jotting anoraks y’know!!

Dave

[Marquee] x( Perfection is a state of mind x( [Marquee]

RE: Decency

C’mon you two, kiss and make up!

RE: Decency

It isn’t a ‘problem’ Moggy – guilt or innocence isn’t the factor – it’s simply how you go about things. If I tried to publish the ‘truth’ about many rebuilds and project’s that go on I would be in court every week . I would have a defence that I could state facts that would be true . If however I said that various ‘owners’
were ‘morons’ for what they were doing I would loose every time.

For crying out loud David!

What is your problem?

There hasn’t been a single posting criticising ‘spotters’ as a group, or for the hobby itself.

This is about the dozen or so (I now realise, sadly misunderstood) worthies that went to Greece. Yet you charge off at some sort of tangent as if we were all attacking your family.

You got anything you’d like to share with us?

Moggy

RE: Libel

Damien – The story isn’t about whether they are guilty or not – I am not asking you to change you view on them whatsoever .
What I am saying is that you simply cannot post offensive
comments about people on the internet and not expect to get a reply.

RE: Plane spotting

Moggy – I am not in favour of a crusade to eliminate the internet of
all the ‘garbage’ which is written. In this case though it’s simple : FlyPast and the Key Publishing group I am sure rely on various ‘spotters’ to get news and articles.

For example : At Cockpit Fest this year a large number of ‘spotters’
came to see the machines. Now whether you agree with what they do or not they have contributed to the event and indeed through the admission charge directly put money into preservation of aircraft at
Newark. I justify that by the fact that it’s not just the aircraft
but also the infrastructure that needs to be maintained.
Whether you view what they do as useful or useless I have been helped by ‘spotters’ in the past which has directly helped in saving aircraft from the smelter.
I do not condone the breaking of any laws abroad but I also feel that the group were with the exception of one cleared of the
charges. For the Greek airforce to permit them to visit the same base again I feel shows the Greeks to be decent people.
Nobody has gained anything from this case except from the solicitors as is often the case.

RE: Libel

Damien – with the greatest of respect do you actually need to be interested in plane spotting in any way to organise a foreign trip.
I went to Portugal recently but for my sins I allowed my wife to organise all the details – now for instance if I was apprehended
taking numbers of F-16’s etc I would hardly expect my wife to go to the ‘slammer’ for nipping into Going Places . Maybe she can speak Greek or indeed write it – that could be the explanation for why she was ‘caught’ doing word search or cross switch in a transit van on a Greek airbase.

Quick guys

We’d all better get over to

http://www.exile.ru/140/140110003.html

What that guy has written in the article bottom right is offensive to our valiant British spotters. He needs sorting out double quick time.

Anyone know a good lawyer?

Moggy

Poor woman

Total agreement with that David.

If I asked Mrs Moggy to sit in a Transit whilst I assidiously broke the rules in a foreign country so that I could write down ‘rare numbers’ (Me? I just use the ones between 0 and 9, they seem to work for me) in my little book, I’d expect her to at least divorce me, at best bludgeon me to death with my telescope.

That plane spotter woman is a true saint. Is it still to late to get her added to the list of 100 greatest Britains I wonder?

Moggy

RE: Libel

All in favour of that Moggy – I especially feel for the poor woman
who had a stretch inside for sitting in a transit van for hours on end
while the rest of them got jot down the numbers.

RE: Libel

Like I say, you’ve recently convinced me what lovable warm and cuddly humans these poor victimised spotters are.

Shall we have a collection for them?

Moggy

RE: Libel

Moggy – point 4 is abusive language in the introduction page of the forum. I include a definition for your ease:

abusive adj.insulting or rude ; using insulting or rude language.

Now compare that to ‘complete and utter morons’ as your header and various other comments.

I am all for people speaking their minds about people but do we really need comments which might be deemed amusing to some but
quite insulting to others. I don’t actually think you know any member
of that group and although it’s easy to generalise .
This is a simple matter that the are ways and means of describing people’s activities but insulting language can be easily
substituted with good use of the English language.

I don’t particularily approve or disapprove of the activities of this group – what I do disapprove of is ‘trial by internet’ and the fact
that comments can be passed on people incredibly quickly often without the person’s knowledge.
I enjoy playing Devil’s Advocate – maybe only to speak for those
who havn’t had the opportunity.

RE: Incidentally David

Moggy – You mention in an earlier point watching the Hanna’s performing aerobatics above two C-130’s while the spotters noted the numbers. Correct me If I am wrong but you both seem to be looking at
aircraft . In their case they are noting the numbers as a rare ‘number’ for example and your case admiring the performance of the machine – to most of the public I guess the activities are very similar.

Incidentally David

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 09-11-02 AT 05:07 PM (GMT)]”These people are members of a hobby which we also enjoy.”

Now THAT probably is actionable. (Or should be)

The only point at which the hobby that these people enjoy and what I do for fun even remotely coincide comes from the fact that – very rarely – they happen at the same place.

Don’t EVER intimate that I have anything else in common with them.

Moggy

Very choosy about who he is lumped together with.

RE: Libel

David.

1) I didn’t understand your reference to point 4. What does that mean?

2) You seem to have a limited understanding of the concept of libel. I’m perfectly happy that nothing I said could (further) lower the reputation of that particular group in the eyes of the general public.

However, with a view to saving these people even greater expense in court I retract everything I said.

These pillars of society went about their laudable pastime in a responsible and considerate manner.

Their every action was exemplary, and they should stand as shining beacons to the young people of this sceptered-isle.

Those awful Greeks should have known better than to want to enforce their own rules on their own airbases within their own country. What were they thinking of?

They are obviously not morons, and are patently not complete. I shall personally second each and every application they make to MENSA for membership.

I don’t know how I could possible have so misunderstood these true British heros in their valiant quest to write down the tail number of every aircraft in the world. It must have been the stress of Snapper’s defection to the Tara Fitzgerald camp.

I shall go straight to WH Smith on Monday morning to buy my Ian Allan’s book of numbers, loop through Homebase on the way for all the other equipment and see you on the next tour to the Iraqui air bases.

Penitent Moggy

RE: Libel

Moggy – Please read point 4 on your introduction to the forum.

Firstly :

1.The members of this group are by and large well known ‘spotter’.
Mike Bursell has been doing it for a number of years and yet
he doesn’t seem to spend large amounts of time behind bars in
various foreign countries – so maybe we can assume they are law
abiding.

2.The group were at a public open day – does that mean that the
fact that they were taking numbers down is any diffent from the
large numbers of people taking photographs. The equipment they
had could have been confescated at the entrance point.

3.The group were not ‘lucky’ to get the conviction overturned. They
had a good solicitor who got the conviction overturned. They were detained for a number of weeks in Greece and you can hardly expect them to be happy about it.

4. The fact that they were invited to the IWM display is solely a matter for them. The ones that accepted the invitation I am sure acted responsibly.

5. The is always the comments that they went somewhere that they wern’t supposed to . That is incorrect. The facts are that they saw an aircraft that the Greek’s are particularily
sensitive about and this exposed serious shortcomings in the security surrounding this aircraft in particular.

The Greek Air Force invited – Yes that’s invited the spotters to the base again as a sign of reconciliation . They didn’t trepass they had an open invite. So you can forget all the nonsence about them being smug. I am sure the members of the group who chose not to go again did so because of their own feelings.

I do not feel that this case makes any slur on the British as a people
or indeed the people who choose to make plane spotting a hobby.

I have visited Greece and I found the people warmly welcoming of the
British and I feel that this isn’t likely to have changed. The are
a large number of graves in Greece of our servicemen . I am sure
the Greeks still recognise the sacrifices made by this country in order to gain their freedom.

I think the people who do damage our reputation abroad are the perverts that go abroad for child sex and the drugs runners. This case
will be forgotten about in a few months. Nothing has been gained by this case – the Greeks I am sure have tightened their security and
possibly realised the fact that people do ‘plane spot’ but probably
not realised why. The group themselves I am sure are more wary of
Greece but I don’t suppose they will change their hobby.
I cannot recall the last time a large group of plane spotters was detained so maybe we will just have to live with the current staple diet of the other members of society who indulge in cocaine taking ,adultery and Royal revelations.

RE: Libel

Lancman – It’s great having a laugh but in reality do u think it’s sensible starting it with ‘Complete and utter morons’ ?
These people are members of a hobby which we also enjoy.
Their names are well known and a some of them have contributed to
Key Publishing articles and features. This isn’t a matter of me saying I disagree with your interpretation of the events – I am simply
defending people who havn’t as yet had the chance to reply.
Many months ago a gentleman had is name tarnished by ‘grave robbing’ accusation’s on another forum – it was subsequently found
in a court of law that he acted with respect to what he found.
Your quite welcome to carry the thread but If I was a solicitor I would not take the start of the thread as a well meaning
joke.

The poster speaks

My thread. I’ll explain it.

It was not an attack on registration collectors as a group. Some are very knowledgeable and augment the same sort of enjoyment we all appear to get from watching aircraft with the writing down of numbers in a book. Why is inexplicable, though I think Sigmund Freud did attempt it.

My point was that this crew in particular had demonstrated a depressing blindness to all except the collection of hastily scribbled numbers in a grubby book.

I have seen it demonstrated – two pathetic anoraks (yes they were really wearing them) struggling with telescopes to read tail numbers off C130s whilst Ray an Mark Hannah were performing stunning synchronised aerobatics in a pair of Spitfires.

This lot demonstrated it by ignoring the laws of the country they were visitors in and turned a deaf ear to instructions not to do something. They were representing YOU and ME over there. Everybody British who is interested in aircraft was besmirched by their action.

THEN…

…once they were lucky enough to get off, they ponce around the same air base in an unmistakable “Up yours!” gesture. Just like infantile schoolchildren parading up and down outside the headmaster’s study with a thumb in each ear waggling their fpodgy little fingers and sticking out their tongues at his closed door. (I am possibly doing schoolchildren an injustice here. I apologise if any are reading this.)

This was why I was so vehemently against these retards being feted at the last Duxford. I wrote to Duxford and got a mass-produced brush-off. Nobody there is actually listening (With one Spitfire polishing exception).

So come on David. Defend this unspeakably sad group if you can.

Moggy

Very serious for once.

RE: Killjoys!

Yes, I think this thread WAS just a laugh, and yet again someone way too serious has missed the point entirely, run with it and soured a thread.

No doubt this will now rage on for for days and days!

RE: Not in the spirit of FlyPast

Kev – I used the example of the Skeeter as an example. Are you seriously suggesting that the security of civil registered machines
is of less importance than military?
In the days that I went round airfields access was usually very easy to most airfields – I don’t believe it’s the same now !
As a matter of point I have done guard duty at various RAF bases so I do have an understanding of security.